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H.R. 812, The Agent Orange Equity Act of 2011 (9181 comments ↓)

  • This item is from the 112th Congress (2011-2012) and is no longer current. Comments, voting, and wiki editing have been disabled, and the cost/savings estimate has been frozen.

H.R. 812 would amend title 38, United States Code, to clarify presumptions relating to the exposure of certain veterans who served in the vicinity of the Republic of Vietnam.

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WE WANT WHAT YOU HAVE NOW!

Another petition has gone up on our Petitions page. It’s titled “WE WANT WHAT YOU HAVE NOW! (THANK YOU?) H.R. 812, The Agent Orange Equity Act of 2011.” It’s hard to be sure exactly what it’s all about, but it appears to b...

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Ralph Kramden

February 21, 2011, 12:57am (report abuse)

Just more of the same old BS. It's just another veteran welfare program.

Anti-Welfare

February 21, 2011, 11:52am (report abuse)

JUST MORE VETERAN WELFARE!

VOTE NO!

James C.

February 23, 2011, 1:16pm (report abuse)

Can someone explain to me how a person in an airplane at 35000 feet could be exposed to any of this stuff? And just how far out is "offshore"? My personal experience also tells me that there are people who hold one of both of the medals listed who were never in the vicinity of Vietnam, much less exposed to anything. It just doesn't make sense to me.

I asked this same question during the last session of congress and received no answers. From that I believe it is safe to presume that this bill is nothing more than an attempt to create another large group of recipients for veterans benefits that they do not deserve.

Since this bill didn't make it out of committee last session, even though Filner was the chair of the committee, I can also presume that the majority of congress also agrees with my assessment.

Anti-Welfare

February 24, 2011, 12:18am (report abuse)

The whole "agent orange made me sick" whine is BULL$HIT.

The entire thing is nothing more than a veteran welfare program which pays BILLIONS of dollars to a group who deserve nothing.

The Agent Orange Act should be repealed and this entire welfare scam thrown in the trash.

End all presumption awards. Any veteran who asks for compensation for exposure to herbicides should be required to prove DIRECT EXPOSURE and that their physical problems could only be a DIRECT RESULT OF SUCH EXPOSURE. If they cannot do that they should be denied compensation. No more blanket welfare payments.

For those who are tired of providing more and more welfare make sure your representatives and senators know you are against this welfare scam. Make sure to remind them that their job is to take care of ALL the people, not just one small group of loudmouths who want more and more welfare.

REPEAL THE AGENT ORANGE ACT NOW!!!

Clarence P.

February 24, 2011, 12:35am (report abuse)

Most of the welfare programs for veterans should be repealed! The Lard Ass act of 1992 is the most ridiculous one of all. Get out, get fat, get sick, eat a lot of twinkies, get a scooter, draw welfare from the VA, and lie about your service while blocking the candy isle at Walmart. There must be millions of your type. Stop breathing my air.

Charles R Taylor

February 24, 2011, 12:23pm (report abuse)

The whole idea of giving disability to anyone who set foot in Vietnam is stupid.

The REMF who sat in an air-conditioned building at MACV, ate all his meals in an air-conditioned facility, slept in an air-conditioned barracks, and never left Saigon was no more exposed than the man in the moon. And there are a lot more examples if you care to look.

I agree that this whole thing has gotten out of hand and has to be stopped. This latest foul-up by the secretary will cost many billions of dollars that shouldn't be handed out.

I'm for some radical changes in the way this is handled. Maybe the idea that everyone has to prove their exposure and that it caused their problems is a good one.

Jim H. M

February 24, 2011, 8:23pm (report abuse)

around 200 Vets who where in the Vietnam war are Dying everyday,

by 2o20 they say we will be gone !!! I was drafted did not chicken out like some, average age

of death in U.S. is 77

Vietnam vet is 66. Be thanful your not fighting cancer and other

problems associated to agent orange.

Look at the suicide rate check the facts before you judge us, think about are family members who are losing there love ones to agent orange !!!! I would give up all themoney in the world to have my health back, also close friends who

will not see there grandkids etc.

So judge yourself not me I'm

proud to be an American and die one way or another from being a Vet!!

Do you think I wanted to go to Vietnam, & now die like a secound hand citizen !!! be thankfull & thank God your not dying from agent

orange.

J RM

February 24, 2011, 8:55pm (report abuse)

Boy you guys are stupid- there are 650 million veit citizens getting help from agent orange exposure from US tax payers.

there was 22 million gallons of agent orange sprayed on Vietnam

do you think it just went away, didn't get in the water & air blow in the wind !!!

Also what do you think the Viet. citizens did with the Barrels

the used them to store water in, cook in, to heat with, & store 2 cycle fuel in, so they could drive there little put puts around & pollute there whole country!!!

Do you think when they sprayed it on water ways it did not flow into the ocean. what do you

think those sailors drank bottled water.

They showered in milk & ran around with hazenate suits.

JRM

February 24, 2011, 8:57pm (report abuse)

Do you think when they sprayed it on water ways it did not flow into the ocean. what do you

think those sailors drank bottled water.

They showered in milk & ran around with hazenate suits.

They have a agent orange registry where they test there blood & cancers for Dioxsin there

samples are 100 % for dioxsin in

there samples. Where did they get it at walmart ?

Untill you hold a 62 % vietnam Vet Family member and watch Him die from Dioxsin, and

leave His Family with nothing,

because He could not work & medical

bills where eating them alive !!

Because people like you wa thching your big screan TV, with your beer in your hand dont want to give them help !!!!

It is a stain on are country to send are young men & Woman into Harms way then not help them when the come home !!!! Think about it !!!

JRM

February 24, 2011, 8:58pm (report abuse)

We spend billions of $ on earmarks these polititians think up every year, Who is taking the Goverment, wellfair people, sec 8's

Spotted owls, bridges to no where etc.

Hug a Vet for you would not be posting here without one !!!!!!

JP

February 24, 2011, 9:44pm (report abuse)

The war lasted 10yrs. We lost 58,000+. Comment pro or con if you were there. If not, reserve your opinion/s. God forbid if you or a loved one goes to war and needs assistance. Then, I would welcome your comment considering your newly found wisdom.

JP

February 24, 2011, 10:17pm (report abuse)

My statement read "comment pro or con if you were there". It should read "comment con 0NLY if you were there". I was there and I am not receiving ANY benefits. Most of us are not. THANKS for the info! Hmmm.

Anti-Welfare

February 24, 2011, 11:09pm (report abuse)

The whole "agent orange made me sick" whine is BULL$HIT.

The entire thing is nothing more than a veteran welfare program which pays BILLIONS of dollars to a group who deserve nothing.

The Agent Orange Act should be repealed and this entire welfare scam thrown in the trash.

End all presumption awards. Any veteran who asks for compensation for exposure to herbicides should be required to prove DIRECT EXPOSURE and that their physical problems could only be a DIRECT RESULT OF SUCH EXPOSURE. If they cannot do that they should be denied compensation. No more blanket welfare payments.

For those who are tired of providing more and more welfare make sure your representatives and senators know you are against this welfare scam. Make sure to remind them that their job is to take care of ALL the people, not just one small group of loudmouths who want more and more welfare.

REPEAL THE AGENT ORANGE ACT NOW!!!

BJJ

February 25, 2011, 1:02pm (report abuse)

If you weren't there, then don't complain about it! I was exposed to herbicides while stationed in Thailand. I'd gladly give up my medical conditions as a result of the exposure to anyone of the 'nay sayers' and let them live with them. I was not in an airplane @ 35,000 feet either. I was on the ground- in the perimeter.

Robt.land

February 25, 2011, 1:39pm (report abuse)

Been there and done that!If you were not there you'll never ever know what the effect of being exposed to herbicides.God knows and so do I ...........

Charles R Taylor

February 25, 2011, 2:04pm (report abuse)

The whole idea of giving disability to anyone who set foot in Vietnam is stupid.

The REMF who sat in an air-conditioned building at MACV, ate all his meals in an air-conditioned facility, slept in an air-conditioned barracks, and never left Saigon was no more exposed than the man in the moon. And there are a lot more examples if you care to look.

I agree that this whole thing has gotten out of hand and has to be stopped. This latest foul-up by the secretary will cost many billions of dollars that shouldn't be handed out.

I'm for some radical changes in the way this is handled. Maybe the idea that everyone has to prove their exposure and that it caused their problems is a good one.

I've been there and I believe this is just another way for the government to gain control of a group of people. If you want the money you have to toe their line. Not for me.

I VOTED NO.

Tony M.

February 25, 2011, 3:30pm (report abuse)

I was there...got two types of cancer and diabetes ll also. Give me a break. I am slowly dying. Oh by the way I am getting nothing yet from the Govt.

Richard Honig

February 25, 2011, 3:34pm (report abuse)

This bill will give some long overdue relief to the Blue Water veterans. Any Republican Tea Party member and Conservatives who place budget concerns over justice to those veterans need to go straight to hell, don't pass GO and don't collect your Congressional pay

Jim F

February 25, 2011, 4:49pm (report abuse)

My best friend fron Nam died Nov 09 from prostate cancer, 3 months after I spoke at his Furneral I was dianosed with prostate cancer, now have neuropathy in both feet and hands, we were on the DMZ, the highest consentration of spray. My buddy tried to work and couldn't, if he had not gotten VA help, he would not have been able to die with dignity..You who speak out against helping those who served should go live in another country, most of us were drafted, it was not our idea to go, but we did and served proudly, I suspect you are the same ones who protested the War when we were protecting you, you were and still are cowards...

Kate M

February 25, 2011, 6:23pm (report abuse)

Shame on all of you who choose to turn your back AGAIN on these vets. Agent Orange has been proven harmful to humans. If you were there on the ground you were exposed and should be compensated.

MRLK

(logged-in user) February 25, 2011, 6:49pm (report abuse)

From January 9, 1962, and ending on May 7, 1975, the Veterans Administration says, in so many words, that there was an Invisible Protective Shield along the entire coast line of Vietnam. This shield kept all Agent Orange and other Herbicides inside. Whether there was over spray or wind or it was in the river waters made no difference. This Invisible Protective Shield filtered out any and all contamination and this in turn protected the Blue Water Veterans from any exposure to Agent Orange or any other Herbicides. The Veterans Administration will allow a Presumption of Exposure if you set your boots on Vietnam ground for any reason or any duration, even for one second. The logic behind this is incomprehensible to me.

LARRY KIDWELL USN Ret

Anti-Welfare

February 25, 2011, 10:15pm (report abuse)

The whole "agent orange made me sick" whine is BULL$HIT.

The entire thing is nothing more than a veteran welfare program which pays BILLIONS of dollars to a group who deserve nothing.

The Agent Orange Act should be repealed and this entire welfare scam thrown in the trash.

End all presumption awards. Any veteran who asks for compensation for exposure to herbicides should be required to prove DIRECT EXPOSURE and that their physical problems could only be a DIRECT RESULT OF SUCH EXPOSURE. If they cannot do that they should be denied compensation. No more blanket welfare payments.

For those who are tired of providing more and more welfare make sure your representatives and senators know you are against this welfare scam. Make sure to remind them that their job is to take care of ALL the people, not just one small group of loudmouths who want more and more welfare.

REPEAL THE AGENT ORANGE ACT NOW!!!

berry

February 26, 2011, 5:51am (report abuse)

i know people that have type two diabeties and claim it came from over seas and it runs in the family! lie two get big checks, 3,000.00 and 300 a month.

Kenneth Martin USN( RET)

February 26, 2011, 12:26pm (report abuse)

I have two presumtive conditions and a related disability from Agent Orange. I spent time in Da Nang and 60+days off the coast of Haiphong. Sorry for you idiots that are complaining. Most of you were probably not alive or ever close to Vie Nam. It has been proven that it was was in our drinking water. I will fight to my death for our just benifits to BLUE Water Navy personel.I am a member of a group fighting for these benifits. I cannot work because of these conditions. Please wake up you vet haters, we are the onse that give you the rightto rant on these sites.

@Kenneth Martin USN( RET)

February 26, 2011, 12:38pm (report abuse)

HEY DUMMY! YOU LOST THE WAR!

YOU GAVE US NOTHING! NADA! ZILCH!

AND NOW YOU WANT US TO PAY FOR THE ILLNESSES YOU BROUGHT ON YOURSELF!

JUST MORE WELFARE!

VOTE NO!

Just a bunch

February 26, 2011, 1:01pm (report abuse)

of worthless old dopehead, alcoholic, burntout whiners.

No more welfare for you!

McAnn

February 26, 2011, 2:34pm (report abuse)

James C. The aircraft started from the ground so, they were not always at 35, 000 feet.

@McAnn

February 26, 2011, 3:04pm (report abuse)

Listen up dumbbutt.

A B52 flying over Vietnam started from Guam and never landed in Vietnam. So just how do you, in your infinite wisdom, think the crew was exposed? The same applies for all the other aircraft that did not take off or land in country but flew over. Everyone on those planes would be presumed to be exposed under this bullcrap bill.

Sometmes I really don't think you have a freaking brain at all. And if you did all you would do is take it out and play with it.

McAnn

February 26, 2011, 4:14pm (report abuse)

UNlike you I have something to play with!!

AMcAnn

February 26, 2011, 7:39pm (report abuse)

So what does your little marble tell you about airplanes at 35,000 feet above the ground? Are those crewmembers "exposed"? Eh scumbucket?

Steely Dane

February 26, 2011, 7:57pm (report abuse)

I understand the comment about airplanes at 35000 ft and how would they be exposed. What I don't understand is the comment about the airplanes starting from the ground. If the airplane took off from viet nam wouldn't the people onboard already be considered "boots on the ground" and presumably exposed?

McAnn

(logged-in user) February 26, 2011, 9:19pm (report abuse)

Vet would have to be exposed to AO when loading and unloading while on the ground. They would hardly load at 35,000 feet. dah!

***

February 26, 2011, 9:27pm (report abuse)

If I'm not mistaken, all the B-52 missions originated from bases other than inside Vietnam. Okinawa,Thailand,Guam and one other that I don't recall the name.

***

February 26, 2011, 9:30pm (report abuse)

If chemicals were used on flightlines and perimeters crewmembers could very well have been exposed

@McAnn

February 26, 2011, 11:27pm (report abuse)

Duh! Dumba$$! B-52 bombers did not LOAD anything. They unloaded bombs from high altitude. And yet the crews of these airplanes would be considered exposed under this bill.

I don't think it's fair to argue anything like this with you since you are so obviously brain damaged. Anyone who thinks McAnn has a clue is rowing with one oar in the water.

As to the "If chemicals were used on flightlines and perimeters crewmembers could very well have been exposed" idea there is no evidence that Agent Orange was used on the bases. And once again, anyone who was on the ground in vietnam and can prove it is presumed to be exposed.

llf4853

February 26, 2011, 11:56pm (report abuse)

If you were born after 1972 you have no say in this matter. Only the brave heros who were drafted and fought have a say.

llf4853

February 27, 2011, 12:10am (report abuse)

I only hope, if these vets do not get the help they need, then 10 years from now if the military vets from Iraq and Afganastan start getting sick with 10 or 20 diseases that they dont get any help either!!!

@llf4853

February 27, 2011, 12:17am (report abuse)

BS. I have a say since it is MY tax money that is being thrown down the drain if this bill passes.

And since you have no clue about who did what perhaps you should change your statement about "the brave heros who were drafted and fought". Not one soul was drafted into the Air Force or the Navy. And yet a great many of those brave souls fought, and died, in that war.

And maybe you should consider some arithmatic lessons, since anyone who was drafted would have been born way before 1972. Better yet why don't you just go back to that booze you were drinking and leave the discussions to those who still have functioning brain cells.

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) February 27, 2011, 10:23am (report abuse)

"If you weren't there, then don't complain about it!"

Every citizen and taxpayer has the right to complain about bad legislation that robs from their wallet, it is the folks that are sitting on their ass drawing unearned public funds that should not complain .AND. be precluded from voting on anything.

" I was on the ground- in the perimeter"

If that's so, you would be entitled to an award based on a direct claim provided your service on the perimeter can be verified. ...but that isn't what this legislation is about. This legislation intends to make every swinging d!ck that ever served anywhere in the western pacific presumptive of exposure to tactical herbicides. That is utter nonsense as the overwhelming majority of them never got near Vietnam or were exposed to tactical herbicides.

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) February 27, 2011, 10:26am (report abuse)

"If you were not there you'll never ever know what the effect of being exposed to herbicides"

That's horseh!t. Where is there? FWIW, I don't have to be 'there' in order to understand the effects of AO. AAMOF, when you were 'there' you didn't know $h!t about AO, the effects of which didn't manifest till 30 years later.

"I was there...got two types of cancer and diabetes"

The vast majority of folks with cancer or diabetes never served anywhere and probably couldn't spell Vietnam.

"I am slowly dying"

So is everyone else, but you want them to support you while you sit on your a$$.

"Oh by the way I am getting nothing yet from the Govt"

Why not? Every one that can show they served within the land borders of Vietnam and on the Korean DMZ is entitled to presumption.

McAnn

(logged-in user) February 27, 2011, 10:26am (report abuse)

Hey, Andy what do you thing about the 43% - 57% on this bill? Maybe this is the time!!

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) February 27, 2011, 10:53am (report abuse)

"This bill will give some long overdue relief to the Blue Water veterans."

Undeserved, read welfare, relief.

"Any Republican Tea Party member and Conservatives who place budget concerns over justice to those veterans"

The only people that aren't concerned about 'the budget' are those that aren' taxed to pay the bill or will reap a welfare windfall.

"and don't collect your Congressional pay"

Whatever is wrong with your mind. I think it's time for your meds.

Anti-Welfare

February 27, 2011, 11:05am (report abuse)

All you get from veterans is "GIMME GIMME GIMME"!

The whole "agent orange made me sick" whine is BULL$HIT. It is nothing more than a veteran welfare program which pays BILLIONS of dollars to a group who deserve nothing.

Repeal the Agent Orange Act and throw this entire welfare scam in the trash. There is way too much money being thrown down that rat hole.

End all presumption awards. A veteran who asks for compensation for exposure to herbicides must prove DIRECT EXPOSURE and that their physical problems could only be a DIRECT RESULT OF SUCH EXPOSURE. If they can't do that deny any compensation. No more blanket welfare payments.

If you are tired of providing veteran welfare tell your representatives and senators how you feel. Remind them that their job is to take care of ALL the people, not just one small group of loudmouths who want more and more welfare.

NO MORE WELFARE FOR WHINEY VETERANS!

REPEAL THE AGENT ORANGE ACT NOW!!!

?

February 27, 2011, 11:22am (report abuse)

I'm not an advocate for all who received the VSM being granted presumption.Anyone serving on flightline that had close exposure to aircraft that flew missions over Vietnam landmass and territorial waters should be included, just as BWN that sailed anywhere in the territorial waters. Merely sailing the pacific ocean would not qualify either.

AO and or other chemical exposure where ever you served should qualify.Bases that have been or still are on the superfund list should qualify and that my friends would take in most if not all vets that served in that time period.

Gov't hasn't exactly been forthcoming in all the crap we all have been exposed to. Places where the Gov't has stated no one was exposed because no chemicals were there have since been proven otherwise. Little by little,new information finally surfaces.

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) February 27, 2011, 11:23am (report abuse)

"we were on the DMZ, the highest consentration of spray"

Then you are entitled to presumption if you have a condition linked to exposure. This bill intends to compensate those that WEREN'T exposed. In other words 'welfare'

"You who speak out against helping those who served should go live in another country"

You sure you are an American?

"most of us were drafted"

Horse manure!!! do you just make up things to support your belief? 25% (648,500) of total forces in country were draftees. http://www.mrfa.org/vnstats.htm

"I suspect you are the same ones who protested the War when we were protecting you, you were and still are cowards"

You suspect wrong, but hey... what have you done for your country today?

@?

February 27, 2011, 11:29am (report abuse)

So can you explain how flying over the landmass and territorial waters would constitute exposure?

How do you define "territorial waters" for the BWN?

It appears you want to draw lines of demarcation just as the VA has been criticized for doing. How is it that your lines are "better"?

It sounds like you advocate punishing the government for not being forthcoming. Isn't it a fact that you would instead be punishing those who actually pay the bills, the American taxpayer?

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) February 27, 2011, 11:37am (report abuse)

"Shame on all of you who choose to turn your back AGAIN on these vets"

No one is turning their back on veterans that were harmed by their service. We are turning our back on handouts.

"Agent Orange has been proven harmful to humans"

Yes it is, but it doesn't cause every possible condition known to man.

"If you were there on the ground you were exposed and should be compensated"

They are if they have a condition linked to herbicide exposure

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) February 27, 2011, 12:12pm (report abuse)

"the Veterans Administration says, in so many words, that there was an Invisible Protective Shield along the entire coast line of Vietnam"

Neither the IOM nor the DVA say any such thing. They do say there is no quallified and authoritative evidence that herbicides left the land mass.

"Whether there was over spray or wind or it was in the river waters made no difference"

Wind drift and river water were never shown to be a viable method of dioxin leaving the land mass

"The Veterans Administration will allow a Presumption of Exposure if you set your boots on Vietnam ground for any reason or any duration, even for one second. The logic behind this is incomprehensible to me"

Actually it was Congress that decided that when they wrote:

38 USC§ 1116 Presumptions of service connection for diseases associated with exposure to certain herbicide agents; presumption of exposure for veterans who served in the Republic of Vietnam

VA is just following the intentions of Congress

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) February 27, 2011, 12:32pm (report abuse)

"Most of you were probably not alive or ever close to Vie Nam"

Think again

"It has been proven that it was was in our drinking water"

Nonsense, where is that written in qualified and authoritive evidence

"I will fight to my death for our just benifits to BLUE Water Navy personel"

Oh, jesus... Please save us from the BWN nutters.

"I am a member of a group fighting for these benifits"

Looks like wally and the beavers boys have arrived

"I cannot work because of these conditions"

If you were BWN, your service isn't responsible for that

"Please wake up you vet haters, we are the onse that give you the rightto rant on these sites"

I and many others earned that right for ourselves

McAnn

(logged-in user) February 27, 2011, 1:41pm (report abuse)

As I said before, I flew on a C130 with barrels on board and was exposed to it. The flight origionated in Danang and picked us up in PI to Japan. How much others are the gov hiding.

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) February 27, 2011, 1:47pm (report abuse)

"The aircraft started from the ground so, they were not always at 35, 000 feet"

...but not in Vietnam

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) February 27, 2011, 1:49pm (report abuse)

"If the airplane took off from viet nam wouldn't the people onboard already be considered "boots on the ground" and presumably exposed?"

The aircraft flying high level bombing missions were based in Thailand and Guam. None ever landed in Vietnam unless they were shot down.

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) February 27, 2011, 1:50pm (report abuse)

"If chemicals were used on flightlines and perimeters crewmembers could very well have been exposed"

Then they would have to prove they entered the permigter area.

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) February 27, 2011, 1:54pm (report abuse)

"If you were born after 1972 you have no say in this matter"

Nonsense!!! Every taxpayer has a say about how his money is spent

Only the brave heros who were drafted and fought have a say"

MRLK

(logged-in user) February 27, 2011, 1:58pm (report abuse)

What makes Andy Johnson so eager to express his right to free speech, yet so negative toward the Veterans that help to preserve that right? If he did serve, I truly hope and pray he never needs the help of another Veteran. We live in one of the greatest countries in the world, and we all enjoy our right for these lively discussions. Thank the Veteran’s for this privilege. Andy, you sure know how to shack us up!!!!

LARRY KIDWELL USN Ret.

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) February 27, 2011, 2:00pm (report abuse)

"The flight origionated in Danang and picked us up in PI to Japan"

If a flight originated in vietnam you would be entitled.

"As I said before, I flew on a C130 with barrels on board and was exposed to it."

No Tactical herbicides were ever transported on military aircraft or ships.

All of it was in the custody of the Army Chemical Corps until it reached Vietnam and was turned over to ARVN. All of it was transported by merchant ship.

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) February 27, 2011, 2:02pm (report abuse)

An aircraft dropping a mist of 300-350 microns will be 88% on size but the other 12% could be larger or smaller. That same aircraft dropping from 150ft (standard altitude) and allowing for a minimum droplet size of 100 microns will only drift off target 1500ft, about a quarter mile. The 88% will have drifted only a couple hundred feet. As far as I can tell, most of the load will be dropped on target and little or none will have drifted offshore. In my opinion, wind drift is nonsense.

HERBICIDES USED IN SOUTHEAST ASIA

Robert A. Darrow, Kent R. Irish, Charles E. Minarik

United States Army

Plant Sciences Laboratories

Fort Detrick

Fredrick, MD 21701

August 1969

Technical Report SA0Q-TR-69-11078

http://tinyurl.com/22qs7cb

or

http://tinyurl.com/ylrudqc

see document page 29

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) February 27, 2011, 2:03pm (report abuse)

Contamination Status of Dioxins in Sediments from Saigon River Estuary, Vietnam

(Received 29 January 2009; accepted 30 March 2009)

http://www.terrapub.co.jp/onli…proceedings/ec/02/pdf/ERA4.pdf

or

http://tinyurl.com/29xz3hv

In core sediment analysis, no temporal trend either in total concentration or isomer profile was observed. 2,3,7,8-TCDD, which was present in chemical defoliants, was not detected in any of the layers analyzed.

Folks:

Not 6 mos ago a study showed no dioxin in sediments from the Saigon River Estuary

No dioxin ever escaped the land mass to be distilled with drinking water aboard ship.

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) February 27, 2011, 2:03pm (report abuse)

http://www.bluewaternavy.org/thaiherbs.pdf

Subject: Herbicide use in Thailand during the Vietnam Era

The Compensation and Pension Service has reviewed a listing of herbicide use and test sites outside Vietnam provided to our office by the Department of Defense (DoD). This list contains 71 sites within the U.S. and in foreign countries where tactical herbicides, such as Agent Orange, were used, tested, or stored. Testing and evaluations of these tactical herbicides were conducted by or under the direction of the U.S. Army Chemical Corps, Fort Detrick, Maryland. The list does not contain names of individuals. Additionally, it does not contain any references to routine base maintenance activities such as range management, brush clearing, weed killing, etc., because these vegetation control activities were conducted by the Base Civil Engineer and involved the use of commercial herbicides approved by the Armed Forces Pest Control Board.

continued...

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) February 27, 2011, 2:03pm (report abuse)

...continued

The application of commercial herbicides on military installations was conducted by certified applicators. DoD has advised us that commercial herbicides were routinely purchased by the Base Civil Engineer under federal guidelines and that records of these procurements were generally kept no longer than two years. We have also reviewed a series of official DoD monographs describing in detail the use, testing, and storage of herbicides at various foreign and domestic locations. In addition, the Project CHECO Southeast Asia Report: Base Defense in Thailand, produced during the Vietnam era, has been reviewed.

continued...

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) February 27, 2011, 2:04pm (report abuse)

...continued

Regarding your veteran claimant with Thailand service, the DoD list indicates only that limited testing of tactical herbicides was conducted in Thailand from 2 April through 8 September 1964. Specifically, the location identified was the Pranburi Military Reservation associated with the Replacement Training Center of the Royal Thai Army, near Pranburi, Thailand. The Report of these tests noted that 5 civilian and 5 military personnel from Fort Detrick, Maryland conducted the spray operations and subsequent research. This location was not near any U.S. military installation or Royal Thai Air Force Base.

continued...

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) February 27, 2011, 2:04pm (report abuse)

...continued

Tactical herbicides, such as Agent Orange, were used and stored in Vietnam, not Thailand. We received a letter from the Department of the Air Force stating that, other than the 1964 tests on the Pranburi Military Reservation, there are no records of tactical herbicide storage or use in Thailand. There are records indicating that commercial herbicides were frequently used for vegetation control within the perimeters of air bases during the Vietnam era, but all such use required approval of both the Armed Forces Pest Control Board and the Base Civil Engineer. In Vietnam, tactical herbicides were aerially applied by UC-123 aircraft in Operation RANCH HAND or by helicopters under the control of the U.S. Army Chemical Corps. Base Civil Engineers were not permitted to purchase or apply tactical herbicides.

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) February 27, 2011, 2:04pm (report abuse)

BWN had little or no exposure to herbicide in Vietnam. During the Haas appeal the VA proposed to modify the M21 manual eliminating the VSM as prima facie evidence of service in the Republic. The VA published a Notice in the Federal Register and the following was their response to public comment. You can read the entire thing at the link provided:

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2007/E7-22983.htm

In any event they have determined there is no QUALIFIED evidence. Qualified is defined as “statistically significant, capable of replication and has withstood peer review.” The NRCET Study (Australian Study) is none of these. The evidentary requirements are defined by the Agent Orange Act of 1991 PL102-4: http://www7.nationalacademies.org/ocga/laws/PL102-4.asp

Too long to post here, read it yourself at the links provided

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) February 27, 2011, 2:05pm (report abuse)

No AO in Guam

http://www.dod.mil/pubs/foi/re…ng_room/TacticalHerbicides.pdf

The History of the US Department of Defense Programs for the Testing, Evaluation, and Storage of Tactical Herbicides 12/2006

Alvin L. Young, Ph. D. for Office of the Under Secretary of Defense

"There were no documents that indicated the herbicides used in Guam, or CONUS military installations were “tactical herbicides”, rather, the available documents confirmed that all pesticides use in these locations and other US Department of Defense installations world wide were those commercially available and approved by AFPCB."

see page 12

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) February 27, 2011, 2:05pm (report abuse)

No AO in Thailand

M21-1mr Part IV, SubPart ii, Chapter 2, Section C

http://www.warms.vba.va.gov/ad…/part4/subptii/ch02/ch02_se... />

Tactical herbicides, such as Agent Orange, were used and stored in Vietnam, not Thailand. We received a letter from the Department of the Air Force stating that, other than the 1964 tests on the Pranburi Military Reservation, there are no records of tactical herbicide storage or use in Thailand. There are records indicating that commercial herbicides were frequently used for vegetation control within the perimeters of air bases during the Vietnam era, but all such use required approval of both the Armed Forces Pest Control Board and the Base Civil Engineer. In Vietnam, tactical herbicides were aerially applied by UC-123 aircraft in Operation RANCH HAND or by helicopters under the control of the U.S. Army Chemical Corps. Base Civil Engineers were not permitted to purchase or apply tactical herbicides.

continued...

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) February 27, 2011, 2:05pm (report abuse)

...continued

q. Memorandum for Record – Herbicide Use in Thailand. There are no records of tactical herbicide spraying by RANCH HAND or Army Chemical Corps aircraft in Thailand after 1964, and RANCH HAND aircraft that sprayed herbicides in Vietnam were stationed in Vietnam, not in Thailand. However, there are records indicating that modified RANCH HAND aircraft flew 17 insecticide missions in Thailand from 30 August through 16 September 1963 and from 14 –17 October 1966. The 1966 missions involved the spraying of malathion insecticide for the “control of malaria carrying mosquitoes.” These facts are not sufficient to establish tactical herbicide exposure for any veteran based solely on service in Thailand.

The fact of the matter is that proponents of this Bill are looking for another free go at your wallet. Don't be snookered by the emotional rhetoric. Think for yourself.

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) February 27, 2011, 2:06pm (report abuse)

The U.S. Army says Agent Orange was not used in Thailand other than a brief test at a remote Royal Thai Army Replacement Base at Pranburi. No aerial spraying was performed and only 5 U.S. Army troops were ever assigned there. The U.S. Air Force says no Agent Orange was used in Thailand. Alvin Young, a private researcher hired by the U.S. Air Force, can find no evidence of AO usage in Thailand. The DVA says their research indicated no use of Agent Orange in Thailand. The VAOGC after extensive research of the Congressional Record can find no evidence Congress ever intended to compensate veterans that served outside the geographic limits of the Republic of Vietnam and finally the Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit ruled against the Haas claim. The Supreme Court refused to hear the appeal.

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) February 27, 2011, 2:08pm (report abuse)

This Bill, HR 812 or HR 2254, have no merit and neither does S 1939 because there is no qualified evidence that dioxin ever left the land mass of Vietnam and/or was ever available in the offshore environment in sufficient quantity to harm units operating there. Despite all the protestations, the IOM has been unable to find any

This Bill proposes to make a mockery of veterans disability compensation by compensating those that were not disabled by military service. IOW, a handout. Something for nothing

This Bill, more appropriately, should be called the Veterans Handout Bill

Why do I call this the Veterans Handout Bill? ...because compensation is intended to offset a veterans disabling condition suffered in service to the people. This Bill asks the people to pay veterans money when there is no evidence a loss was incurred in service, IOW, a handout

Every disabled veteran should be outraged that some folks are seeking to use veterans compensation to augment their retirement

McAnn

(logged-in user) February 27, 2011, 3:02pm (report abuse)

Andy! I don't like being called a liar and any other Vet. I was told by the pilot and seen the barrels with residue on them and several of us got it on our hands a cloths. You don't know it all like you did when you were a teenager. So stop blowing smoke up my butt.

?

February 27, 2011, 4:00pm (report abuse)

to @? :

Millions of gallons of this crap was sprayed and or dumped into rivers and streams. Planes didn't stop spraying just because they flew over waterways and other water supplies. Tropical climate equals monsoon rains and temperature inversion. The crap washed and drifted for miles despite what Andy says certain reports state. 24D and 245T were ester type chemicals thus very volitile in the high humidity of Vietnam,therefore in the atmosphere and being blown sometimes for miles over land and into the sea. Andy has tunnel vision and has an agenda other than being a "concerned tax payer"

Vietnam, like all countries joining oceans claim territorial waters to be further than 100yards off shore. Can't quote exact distances but you can find it on the internet if that interested. BWN vessels distill sea water for potable fresh water use.

High altitude aircraft use onboard oxygen supplies and not likely could be exposed in that manner.Not impossible, but not likely.

?

February 27, 2011, 4:17pm (report abuse)

http://veteransinfo.tripod.com/ao_an_autoimmune.pd

Scroll down to section titled:

Combat Developement and

[ Experimentation ] Test Center and read about chemicals being flown into Vietnam on military aircraft contrary to what Andy states.

McAnn

(logged-in user) February 27, 2011, 4:53pm (report abuse)

It seems Andy thinks everything was done by the book and to the letter. I've got news for you Andy, Ahhhh, it wasn't. That's where your tunnel vision comes into play.

@?

February 27, 2011, 5:05pm (report abuse)

"High altitude aircraft use onboard oxygen supplies and not likely could be exposed in that manner.Not impossible, but not likely."

I don't think you know much about high altitude aircraft. How would an aircraft at 35000 ft supply "onboard" oxygen to all the passengers? Have you been on a transport aircraft lately? Did you wear an oxygen mask while onboard? Another who shows their ignorance abd/or just makes things up to fit their agenda.

As to your so-called report, did you consider the source? Anecdotal remarks are not considered to be evidence. Again, I suppose because ti fits your need you will continue to use things made up out of whole cloth.

@McAnn

February 27, 2011, 5:06pm (report abuse)

If you don't like being called aliar then stop telling lies. That should take care of the problem for you.

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) February 27, 2011, 6:08pm (report abuse)

" I don't like being called a liar and any other Vet"

I don't give a tinkers dam what you like. Fact of the matter is that there is no, none, nada authoritive evidence that any military aircraft or vessel ever transported tactical herbicides. Your 'pilpt' was just as misinformed as you.

Show me authoritive evidence that supports your BS story. Anecdotal evidence is insufficient as is that from conspiro-wacko sites.

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) February 27, 2011, 6:11pm (report abuse)

" Andy thinks everything was done by the book and to the letter"

No, what andy thinks is that he wants to see authoritive and qualified evidence

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) February 27, 2011, 6:25pm (report abuse)

'http://veteransinfo.tripod.com/ao_an_autoimmune.pd'

First of all if you are going to post links, at least get it right.

Did you even check the credentials on your link? It was 'oral' testimony of one member of the National Vietnam Veterans Coalition, a political action committee.

I do believe I asked for AUTHORITIVE evidence. This ain't it

McAnn

(logged-in user) February 27, 2011, 6:42pm (report abuse)

I can see where this is going. No one tells the truth? What's to say everything you read is the truth. Your opinion? And as for the comment of me not telling the truth? I know what the truth is and that is all that matters to me. Authoritive evidence? I'm not so sure that anything you post or say is the truth.

?

February 27, 2011, 8:24pm (report abuse)

I've flown on transports but never at 35000ft. we aren't talking transports we're talking about B52 bomb missions and no I wasn't aware they were pressurized and just figured crewmembers would be wearing their oxygen masks while in combat mode instead of cruising over south chicago.

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) February 27, 2011, 8:28pm (report abuse)

"No one tells the truth?"

Apparently you have as much problem comprehending the written word as you do with understanding what is fact and what is just someones unsubstantiated rhetoric. What I said was: "Your 'pilpt' was just as misinformed as you". That should have been pilot.

"What's to say everything you read is the truth."

I generally don't ask you to believe me. I usually post a link to what I've said and you are always free to find authoritative evidence supporting your position and disputing mine.

"I know what the truth is and that is all that matters to me."

What you 'know' is what you were told. Nothing more and nothing less so unless you tested the contents of those drums or have a copy of the manifest it is just more useless anecdotal evidence.

"Authoritative evidence? "

"I'm not so sure that anything you post or say is the truth."

You are still free to find authoritative evidence to the contrary.

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