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H.R. 3612, The Blue Water Navy Vietnam Veterans Act of 2011 (3985 comments ↓)

  • This item is from the 112th Congress (2011-2012) and is no longer current. Comments, voting, and wiki editing have been disabled, and the cost/savings estimate has been frozen.

H.R. 3612 would amend title 38, United States Code, to clarify presumptions relating to the exposure of certain veterans who served in the vicinity of the Republic of Vietnam.

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Anti-Welfare

December 10, 2011, 2:37am (report abuse)

MAKE SURE EVERY VIETNAM VETERAN IS TREATED EQUALLY!

REPEAL THE AGENT ORANGE ACT NOW!!!

It's time to throw this entire welfare scam in the trash. Far too much money is being thrown down this rat hole. The "agent orange made me sick" whine is BULL$HIT. It is all about giving lazy, no-account veterans more welfare payments. There is no longer any pride in being a veteran. Veterans have become just another bunch of greedy scumbags and scanners.

END ALL AGENT ORANGE COMPENSATION!

No more blanket welfare payments. Repeal this welfare giveaway and put an end to the perceived unfairness in the whole thing. Stop paying this welfare to anyone.

If you are tired of paying for veteran welfare tell your representatives and senators how you feel. Remind them that their job is to take care of ALL the people, not just one small group of greedy entitlement piggies who want more and more welfare.

NO MORE WELFARE!

REPEAL THE AGENT ORANGE ACT NOW!!!

IKNOW

December 10, 2011, 8:54pm (report abuse)

HI ANDY JOHNSON AKA ANTI WELFARE,ITS COPY PASTE TIME.

IWENT

December 10, 2011, 9:37pm (report abuse)

HE WAS IN THE NAVY(ANDY JOHNSON/ANTI WELFARE),BUT HE IS NO VETERAN OF ANY WAR AND GETS HIS KICKS KNOCKING VETERANS THAT ARE ENTITLED TO HEALTH CARE BENEFITS.THEIR COUNTRY CALLED AND THEY WENT.SOME DIDNT COME BACK,MANY DID THAT NOW NEED CARE.NOT THE RACHET JAWING OF A NON VET.

***

December 13, 2011, 5:09am (report abuse)

Same old $hit. Bunch of scumbags trying to get on the gravy train.

YIPPEE - FREE MONEY!!!

GIMME!

GIMME!

GIMME!

This whole thing is nothing but a ripoff by a bunch of veteran thieves.

NL

December 13, 2011, 2:17pm (report abuse)

I don't givea$hit what anyone says. I was drafted and didn't want to go. I did two years and I deserve everything I can get. Bygod I'm owed and I'll take every penny. I don't care if there is diabetes and heart disease in my family I want it all. Screw all of you. Stick it up your effing a$$.

IKNOW

December 14, 2011, 2:56pm (report abuse)

***/andy/anti/crybaby its all the same ,non vets suffering from attention,bored,nothing better to do but degrade the true heroes of AMERICA

IKNOW

December 14, 2011, 4:00pm (report abuse)

I'm such a dumb@ss. I don't know anything except how to rip off all the people who actually have a job and pay for my welfare.

Heroes? Nah none of us are worth a damn thing.

Anti-Welfare

December 15, 2011, 4:16am (report abuse)

MAKE SURE EVERY VIETNAM VETERAN IS TREATED EQUALLY!

REPEAL THE AGENT ORANGE ACT NOW!!!

It's time to throw this entire welfare scam in the trash. Far too much money is being thrown down this rat hole. The "agent orange made me sick" whine is BULL$HIT. It is all about giving lazy, no-account veterans more welfare payments. There is no longer any pride in being a veteran. Veterans have become just another bunch of greedy scumbags and scanners.

END ALL AGENT ORANGE COMPENSATION!

No more blanket welfare payments. Repeal this welfare giveaway and put an end to the perceived unfairness in the whole thing. Stop paying this welfare to anyone.

If you are tired of paying for veteran welfare tell your representatives and senators how you feel. Remind them that their job is to take care of ALL the people, not just one small group of greedy entitlement piggies who want more and more welfare.

NO MORE WELFARE!

REPEAL THE AGENT ORANGE ACT NOW!!!

iknow

December 15, 2011, 4:38pm (report abuse)

ANDY MAKING COMMENTS THAT ARENT MINE ONLY REVEALS THE COWARDLY WAY YOUR ,POST YOUR ANTI VET BS UNDER THE NAME YOUR MOMMA GAVE YOU

iknow

December 15, 2011, 7:25pm (report abuse)

What a shame. My mother didn't name me "iknow" but that's the name I use. Looks like I'm still a dumb@ss.

iknow

December 16, 2011, 3:58pm (report abuse)

ANDY AKA IKNOW CONFIRMS HE IS A DUMB ASS

iknow

December 16, 2011, 4:45pm (report abuse)

See - even I agree that I am a dumb@ss.

frank123

December 18, 2011, 1:27am (report abuse)

What we say here does not matter contact your reps on the hill they will have the final say

iknow

December 18, 2011, 7:34am (report abuse)

And so is frank123.

ANDYSLIE

December 19, 2011, 5:31pm (report abuse)

ON 24 MAY 1968,THREE CREW MEMBERS OF A UC 123 PROVIDER THAT DEPARTED BIEN HAO AIRBASE.(AS THE #2 AIRCRAFT IN A FLIGHT OF 6)THE FLIGHT WAS CONDUCTING A OPERATION RANCH HAND HERBICIDE MISSION OVER THE EXTREME SOUTHERN PROVIDENCE OF SOUTH VIETNAM.AS THE PROVIDER MADE A SPRAYING PASS,IT WAS STRUCK BY HOSTILE FIRE NEAR THE COAST LINE AND WAS OBSERVED TO CRASH INTO THE SOUTH CHINA SEA.ONE BODY WAS RECOVERED BY SAR ,ABOUT TWO MILES SOUTH OF THE SHORE LINE.THIS WAS NOT ON THE LIST OF MACV HERBICIDE INCIDENTS,AS I AM SURE THERE WERE MANY OTHER INCIDENTS.YET NO HERBICIDES EVER LEFT THE LAND MASS OF VIETNAM.NOT BY WIND,NOT BY RAIN,NOT BY RIVER,NOT BY PURPOSELY JETTISONING OR DUMPING.THIS BELIEF IS HAS KILLED THOUSANDS OF VETERANS THAT WENT WHEN THEIR COUNTRY CALLED.THE SAD PART IS THAT MOST COULD OF BEEN ALIVE TODAY IF THEY WERE PROVIDED THE HEALTH CARE THEY WERE ENTITLED !!! AND I DID SAY ENTITLED.

Same Old Crap

December 19, 2011, 5:56pm (report abuse)

You know, all you scumbag BWN thugs can go to hell. You DON'T DESERVE, and you are NOT ENTITLED, to receive anything more than a kick in the backside. You are nothing more than greedy, thieving, worthless scammers who are trying to screw the people out of money.

Anti-Welfare

December 20, 2011, 1:45am (report abuse)

MAKE SURE EVERY VIETNAM VETERAN IS TREATED EQUALLY!

REPEAL THE AGENT ORANGE ACT NOW!!!

It's time to throw this entire welfare scam in the trash. Far too much money is being thrown down this rat hole. The "agent orange made me sick" whine is BULL$HIT. It is all about giving lazy, no-account veterans more welfare payments. There is no longer any pride in being a veteran. Veterans have become just another bunch of greedy scumbags and scanners.

END ALL AGENT ORANGE COMPENSATION!

No more blanket welfare payments. Repeal this welfare giveaway and put an end to the perceived unfairness in the whole thing. Stop paying this welfare to anyone.

If you are tired of paying for veteran welfare tell your representatives and senators how you feel. Remind them that their job is to take care of ALL the people, not just one small group of greedy entitlement piggies who want more and more welfare.

NO MORE WELFARE!

REPEAL THE AGENT ORANGE ACT NOW!!!

TOCRAPPER

December 20, 2011, 1:50am (report abuse)

IF CRAP DIDNT FLOAT YOU WOULD DROWN.

Said the

December 21, 2011, 2:18pm (report abuse)

turd as he swirled down the drain.

Same Old Crap

December 21, 2011, 10:11pm (report abuse)

You know, all you scumbag BWN thugs can go to hell. You DON'T DESERVE, and you are NOT ENTITLED, to receive anything more than a kick in the backside. You are nothing more than greedy, thieving, worthless scammers who are trying to screw the people out of money.

TOCRAPPER

December 22, 2011, 2:48am (report abuse)

THOSE WHO WERE THERE WILL NEVER FORGET.THOSE LIKE YOU WILL NEVER KNOW.YOU WOULD DEGRADE A SEWER TREATMENT PLANT.ctv2e

And again

December 22, 2011, 7:01am (report abuse)

we hear from the toilet bowl. Sounds like another turd going down the drain.

You weren't there so I know you have no idea what went on. Just another of the scumbags trying to steal something from the honest citizens of this country.

Bill.Smith

December 22, 2011, 10:21pm (report abuse)

None of you BWN people were there. You were out to sea enjoying 3 hots and a cot with warm showers. The people who were there were sleeping in the mud enjoying the chemical cocktail.

You weren't exposed. F00king wannabe's

YOULIVADREAM

December 23, 2011, 3:04am (report abuse)

ARE YOU A HONEST PERSON?FIND ME ONE.NOW DONT GET YOUR PANTIES ALL WADED UP.THATS WHERE YOUR HASH MARKS ARE.YOU GOT YOURS NOW YOU DONT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO EXCEPT CRY ABOUT THE TAXES YOU DONT PAY.HONEST,I LAUGH

Well well

December 23, 2011, 3:57am (report abuse)

another witty riposte from the toilet bowl. Sounds like the water flow is starting to get rough in there.

Bill.Smith

December 23, 2011, 6:56am (report abuse)

Personally, I don't believe it's the water flow. Probably a shortage of funds since the taxpayers do't seem to want to fund this welfare scam

wakeup

December 24, 2011, 12:46pm (report abuse)

SINCE WHEN DO THE TAX PAYERS DECIDE WHAT CONGRESS DOES?

LINE UP!

December 24, 2011, 3:05pm (report abuse)

All you scumbag veterans. Make sure you screw the public out of every dime you can. It doesn't matter that you were drunk when you fell down the stairs leaving your girlfriend's place to go home to your wife and broke your leg. It doesn't matter that you are a fatassed glutton who stuffs your face with fat and grease.

All that matters is that you were in the military.

FILE FILE FILE!

SCREW THE PUBLIC! THEY DESERVE IT!

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) December 24, 2011, 5:37pm (report abuse)

"SINCE WHEN DO THE TAX PAYERS DECIDE WHAT CONGRESS DOES?"

Since the have the power to elect those that do what they want them to do. Those that don't, get turned out. Witness last years Tea Party Revolution in the House.

wakeup

December 24, 2011, 9:36pm (report abuse)

NOTHING HAS CHANGED IN CONGRESS HAS IT!! OOPS THERE GOES ANOTHER TRILLION.

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) December 24, 2011, 10:16pm (report abuse)

Try a course in reading comprehension. I said nothing has changed wrt evidence of AO exposure for BWN.

wrt

December 25, 2011, 4:42am (report abuse)

TRY BASIC SPELLING,THIRD GRADER.

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) December 25, 2011, 8:40am (report abuse)

You get the message just fine. You aren't worth the trouble to do better.

STNICK

December 25, 2011, 12:17pm (report abuse)

MERRY CHRISTMAS TO THE HOME OF THE BRAVE AND LAND OF THE FREE.

***

December 26, 2011, 2:06am (report abuse)

WHINE!

WHINE!

WHINE!

All you get from veterans is "GIMME GIMME GIMME!"

It's time to shut down the gravy train.

NO MORE WELFARE!

VOTE NO!

OK?

December 26, 2011, 10:36pm (report abuse)

Bill Smith

At least you had a place to sleep!

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) December 27, 2011, 4:17am (report abuse)

Try to get over it. You weren't exposed to anything. Are you trying to tell us you had worse sleeping quartes than the grunts in the bush??? Oh, pleeze. You are such a bull$h!tter. You don't deserve compensation. Get a job

OK?

December 28, 2011, 6:31am (report abuse)

No I'm not saying we had a worse place to sleep. I only said you had a place to sleep.

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) December 28, 2011, 8:50am (report abuse)

First of all you know nothing about what I did or didn't have. None the less. Those that served within the land borders of the Republic got to sleep in the bush which was contaminated by dioxin. BWN had a warm, safe, clean bed to sleep in. Clean drinking water and an atmosphere that was cleaner than what their civilian peers back home had.

When you find authoritative and quallified evidence that BWN was exposed, let Congress know cuz this stupid $h!t is going down the tubes.

IKNOW

December 28, 2011, 2:13pm (report abuse)

ANDY JOHNSON WAS A BLUE WATER WANNABE SAILOR WHO RUNS HIS MOUTH ABOUT THE HUNDREDS (YES HUNDREDS ) OF SAILORS THAT LOST THEIR LIVES.TELL THOSE SAILORS ABOUT THEIR WARM,SAFE AND CLEAN BEDS.OF COURSE HE ANALIZED THE DRINKING WATER AND FOUND IT CLEANER THAN THE WATER BACK HOME.WHEN YOU STOP RUNNING YOUR ANTI VET MOUTH AND FIND AUTHORITATIVE AND QUALIFIED EVIDENCE,(INSTEAD OF RUNNING YOUR PUTZ )LET US KNOW.BACK TO YOUR BARBIE DOLLS

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) December 28, 2011, 5:23pm (report abuse)

The first thing you don't know is that it is the responsibility of the proponents of this welfare legislation to show they were harmed by their service. So far they have no evidence of that.

When you find that evidence, show it to Congress. They don't seem nclined to even let this get out of committee. The author tried to do that when he was chair of the Veterans committee and still failed.

The next thing you on't know is that you know nothing of andyjohnson. I've been withholding personal information on the web for 20 years now. I even post mis-informatiuon from time to tim just to give the nut cases something to google on. Have a good time loser.

***

December 28, 2011, 8:58pm (report abuse)

Looks like IKNOW is one of those who think if you shout something loud enough and long enough, even though it is a lie, people will believe it. Sorry there schlongsucker, it just isn't so. And no matter how much you want others to believe your bull$hit, nobody is buying it.

They are just another turd circling the toilet bowl waiting to be flushed down the drain.

yousure have

December 29, 2011, 2:32am (report abuse)

its the first time i believe you-when you said you post lies from time to time.i believe you can do better than that.i havent EVER believed yiur crap.GIMMMIE,GIMMMIE

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) December 29, 2011, 3:35am (report abuse)

Personally, I don't care whether any specific individual believes me or not as I don't have any message myself. I'm just reposting authoritative information about how AO was used and spread in Vietnam. I try to post the links as well so people can read it from the source and make up their own mind.

I think the people can separate fact from fiction about the issue and understand the why of all the ad hominem attacks.

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) December 29, 2011, 3:37am (report abuse)

Any lies and mis-information I post are limited to personal information, not the issue. Most of what I post about the issue aren't even my words. Anyone can read it from the source.

Anti-Welfare

December 29, 2011, 3:58am (report abuse)

MAKE SURE EVERY VIETNAM VETERAN IS TREATED EQUALLY!

REPEAL THE AGENT ORANGE ACT NOW!!!

It's time to throw this entire welfare scam in the trash. Far too much money is being thrown down this rat hole. The "agent orange made me sick" whine is BULL$HIT. It is all about giving lazy, no-account veterans more welfare payments. There is no longer any pride in being a veteran. Veterans have become just another bunch of greedy scumbags and scanners.

END ALL AGENT ORANGE COMPENSATION!

No more blanket welfare payments. Repeal this welfare giveaway and put an end to the perceived unfairness in the whole thing. Stop paying this welfare to anyone.

If you are tired of paying for veteran welfare tell your representatives and senators how you feel. Remind them that their job is to take care of ALL the people, not just one small group of greedy entitlement piggies who want more and more welfare.

NO MORE WELFARE!

REPEAL THE AGENT ORANGE ACT NOW!!!

st nick

December 31, 2011, 11:00pm (report abuse)

merry new year

***

January 3, 2012, 5:43am (report abuse)

So another year has passed and the whiners are still crying in their beer.

Too Bad!

So Sad!

No free money for you scammer scumbags.

NO MORE WELFARE!

VOTE NO!

Anti-Welfare

January 6, 2012, 5:31pm (report abuse)

MAKE SURE EVERY VIETNAM VETERAN IS TREATED EQUALLY!

REPEAL THE AGENT ORANGE ACT NOW!!!

It's time to throw this entire welfare scam in the trash. Far too much money is being thrown down this rat hole. The "agent orange made me sick" whine is BULL$HIT. It is all about giving lazy, no-account veterans more welfare payments. There is no longer any pride in being a veteran. Veterans have become just another bunch of greedy scumbags and scanners.

END ALL AGENT ORANGE COMPENSATION!

No more blanket welfare payments. Repeal this welfare giveaway and put an end to the perceived unfairness in the whole thing. Stop paying this welfare to anyone.

If you are tired of paying for veteran welfare tell your representatives and senators how you feel. Remind them that their job is to take care of ALL the people, not just one small group of greedy entitlement piggies who want more and more welfare.

NO MORE WELFARE!

REPEAL THE AGENT ORANGE ACT NOW!!!

WHATHAPPENED

January 7, 2012, 1:23am (report abuse)

ANDY JOHNSON QUIT USEING THE IOM AS AUTHORITIVE EVIDENCE.WHATS THE MATTER?DONT LIKE HOW IT BACKS THE BWN.EAT CROW ANDY

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) January 7, 2012, 7:28am (report abuse)

"DONT LIKE HOW IT BACKS THE BWN"

The latest IOM study commonly known as the BWN Report failed to find any evidence that BWN was exposed.

Spin it any way you want there ain't no evidence that BWN was ever exposed and until there is, Congress is going to ignor these bills.

Now go play with the other children.

IKNOW

January 7, 2012, 2:16pm (report abuse)

ANDY DONT LIKE THE IOM REPORT.TO BAD TAKE YOUR DOLLY AND CRY,wah,wah.

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) January 7, 2012, 3:52pm (report abuse)

When someone finds 'QUALIFIED' evidence that troops in Thailand and Guam or offshore elements were ever harmed to a degree necessary for presumption please point it out. The VA to date has been unable to find it. Qualified evidence is defined as “statistically significant, capable of replication and has withstood peer review.” The NRCET Study (Australian Study) is none of these. As a matter of fact, the authors later admitted they 'assumed' a certain level of contamination and there has never been evidence any contamination of water in the South China Sea existed.

So where do these ridiculous requirements come from. Well, folks, directly from Congress themselves. These are the requirements congress imposed on VA in their Public Law 102-4, the Agent Orange Act of 1991. If anyone has bothered to read it, it says;

continued...

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) January 7, 2012, 3:52pm (report abuse)

...continued

The law provides that whenever the Secretary determines that a positive association exists between exposure to a herbicide agent and a disease, the Secretary will publish regulations establishing presumptive service connection for that disease. The term “positive association” means that the credible evidence for an association equals or outweighs the credible evidence against an association.

In making the determination the Secretary is required to take into consideration whether the results of any study are “statistically significant, are capable of replication and withstand peer review.”

continued...

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) January 7, 2012, 3:52pm (report abuse)

...continued

Note the VA is adding three new conditions on the basis of the 2008 IOM study yet the Secretary pointedly left out BWN despite the report. It isn't hard to figure out why. The Secretary did this off the 2006 report when he added Amloidosis and explained he wouldn't include HTN because the studies the IOM relied on weren't qualified.

If Congress takes the trouble to examine the scientific evidence, they will not pass this bogus legislation. The VA OGC says Congress did not intend to include BWN in the AO act of 1991 and the Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit agreed. Haas lost in the courts, that's why we have this pity bill now.

Better find some qualified evidence or this is going down the tubes, or it ought to.

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) January 7, 2012, 3:53pm (report abuse)

BWN had little or no exposure to herbicide in Vietnam. During the Haas appeal the VA proposed to modify the M21 manual eliminating the VSM as prima facie evidence of service in the Republic. The VA published a Notice in the Federal Register and the following was their response to public comment. You can read the entire thing at the link provided:

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2007/E7-22983.htm

In any event they have determined there is no QUALIFIED evidence of exposure. Qualified is defined as “statistically significant, capable of replication and has withstood peer review.” The NRCET Study (Australian Study) is none of these. The evidentary requirements are defined by the Agent Orange Act of 1991 PL102-4: http://www7.nationalacademies.org/ocga/laws/PL102-4.asp

Too long to post here, read it yourself at the links provided

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) January 7, 2012, 3:53pm (report abuse)

No AO in Guam

http://www.dod.mil/pubs/foi/op…Matters/TacticalHerbicides.pdf

http://tinyurl.com/6krn9d7

The History of the US Department of Defense Programs for the Testing, Evaluation, and Storage of Tactical Herbicides 12/2006

Alvin L. Young, Ph. D. for Office of the Under Secretary of Defense

"There were no documents that indicated the herbicides used in Guam, or CONUS military installations were “tactical herbicides”, rather, the available documents confirmed that all pesticides use in these locations and other US Department of Defense installations world wide were those commercially available and approved by AFPCB."

see page 12

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) January 7, 2012, 3:54pm (report abuse)

No AO in Thailand

M21-1mr Part IV, SubPart ii, Chapter 2, Section C

http://www.warms.vba.va.gov/ad…/part4/subptii/ch02/ch02_se... />

Tactical herbicides, such as Agent Orange, were used and stored in Vietnam, not Thailand. We received a letter from the Department of the Air Force stating that, other than the 1964 tests on the Pranburi Military Reservation, there are no records of tactical herbicide storage or use in Thailand. There are records indicating that commercial herbicides were frequently used for vegetation control within the perimeters of air bases during the Vietnam era, but all such use required approval of both the Armed Forces Pest Control Board and the Base Civil Engineer. In Vietnam, tactical herbicides were aerially applied by UC-123 aircraft in Operation RANCH HAND or by helicopters under the control of the U.S. Army Chemical Corps. Base Civil Engineers were not permitted to purchase or apply tactical herbicides.

continued...

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) January 7, 2012, 3:54pm (report abuse)

...continued

q. Memorandum for Record – Herbicide Use in Thailand. There are no records of tactical herbicide spraying by RANCH HAND or Army Chemical Corps aircraft in Thailand after 1964, and RANCH HAND aircraft that sprayed herbicides in Vietnam were stationed in Vietnam, not in Thailand. However, there are records indicating that modified RANCH HAND aircraft flew 17 insecticide missions in Thailand from 30 August through 16 September 1963 and from 14 –17 October 1966. The 1966 missions involved the spraying of malathion insecticide for the “control of malaria carrying mosquitoes.” These facts are not sufficient to establish tactical herbicide exposure for any veteran based solely on service in Thailand.

The fact of the matter is that proponents of this Bill are looking for another free go at your wallet. Don't be snookered by the emotional rhetoric. Think for yourself.

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) January 7, 2012, 3:54pm (report abuse)

http://www.bluewaternavy.org/thaiherbs.pdf

Subject: Herbicide use in Thailand during the Vietnam Era

The Compensation and Pension Service has reviewed a listing of herbicide use and test sites outside Vietnam provided to our office by the Department of Defense (DoD). This list contains 71 sites within the U.S. and in foreign countries where tactical herbicides, such as Agent Orange, were used, tested, or stored. Testing and evaluations of these tactical herbicides were conducted by or under the direction of the U.S. Army Chemical Corps, Fort Detrick, Maryland. The list does not contain names of individuals. Additionally, it does not contain any references to routine base maintenance activities such as range management, brush clearing, weed killing, etc., because these vegetation control activities were conducted by the Base Civil Engineer and involved the use of commercial herbicides approved by the Armed Forces Pest Control Board.

continued...

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) January 7, 2012, 3:55pm (report abuse)

http://www.bluewaternavy.org/thaiherbs.pdf

Subject: Herbicide use in Thailand during the Vietnam Era

The Compensation and Pension Service has reviewed a listing of herbicide use and test sites outside Vietnam provided to our office by the Department of Defense (DoD). This list contains 71 sites within the U.S. and in foreign countries where tactical herbicides, such as Agent Orange, were used, tested, or stored. Testing and evaluations of these tactical herbicides were conducted by or under the direction of the U.S. Army Chemical Corps, Fort Detrick, Maryland. The list does not contain names of individuals. Additionally, it does not contain any references to routine base maintenance activities such as range management, brush clearing, weed killing, etc., because these vegetation control activities were conducted by the Base Civil Engineer and involved the use of commercial herbicides approved by the Armed Forces Pest Control Board.

continued...

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) January 7, 2012, 3:55pm (report abuse)

...continued

The application of commercial herbicides on military installations was conducted by certified applicators. DoD has advised us that commercial herbicides were routinely purchased by the Base Civil Engineer under federal guidelines and that records of these procurements were generally kept no longer than two years. We have also reviewed a series of official DoD monographs describing in detail the use, testing, and storage of herbicides at various foreign and domestic locations. In addition, the Project CHECO Southeast Asia Report: Base Defense in Thailand, produced during the Vietnam era, has been reviewed.

continued...

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) January 7, 2012, 3:55pm (report abuse)

...continued

Regarding your veteran claimant with Thailand service, the DoD list indicates only that limited testing of tactical herbicides was conducted in Thailand from 2 April through 8 September 1964. Specifically, the location identified was the Pranburi Military Reservation associated with the Replacement Training Center of the Royal Thai Army, near Pranburi, Thailand. The Report of these tests noted that 5 civilian and 5 military personnel from Fort Detrick, Maryland conducted the spray operations and subsequent research. This location was not near any U.S. military installation or Royal Thai Air Force Base.

continued...

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) January 7, 2012, 3:55pm (report abuse)

...continued

Tactical herbicides, such as Agent Orange, were used and stored in Vietnam, not Thailand. We received a letter from the Department of the Air Force stating that, other than the 1964 tests on the Pranburi Military Reservation, there are no records of tactical herbicide storage or use in Thailand. There are records indicating that commercial herbicides were frequently used for vegetation control within the perimeters of air bases during the Vietnam era, but all such use required approval of both the Armed Forces Pest Control Board and the Base Civil Engineer. In Vietnam, tactical herbicides were aerially applied by UC-123 aircraft in Operation RANCH HAND or by helicopters under the control of the U.S. Army Chemical Corps. Base Civil Engineers were not permitted to purchase or apply tactical herbicides.

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) January 7, 2012, 3:56pm (report abuse)

When someone finds 'QUALIFIED' evidence that troops in Thailand and Guam or offshore elements were ever harmed to a degree necessary for presumption please point it out. The VA to date has been unable to find it. Qualified evidence is defined as “statistically significant, capable of replication and has withstood peer review.” The NRCET Study (Australian Study) is none of these. As a matter of fact, the authors later admitted they 'assumed' a certain level of contamination and there has never been evidence any contamination of water in the South China Sea existed.

So where do these ridiculous requirements come from. Well, folks, directly from Congress themselves. These are the requirements congress imposed on VA in their Public Law 102-4, the Agent Orange Act of 1991. If anyone has bothered to read it, it says;

continued...

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) January 7, 2012, 3:56pm (report abuse)

...continued

Note the VA is adding three new conditions on the basis of the 2008 IOM study yet the Secretary pointedly left out BWN despite the report. It isn't hard to figure out why. The Secretary did this off the 2006 report when he added Amloidosis and explained he wouldn't include HTN because the studies the IOM relied on weren't qualified.

If Congress takes the trouble to examine the scientific evidence, they will not pass this bogus legislation. The VA OGC says Congress did not intend to include BWN in the AO act of 1991 and the Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit agreed. Haas lost in the courts, that's why we have this pity bill now.

Better find some qualified evidence or this is going down the tubes, or it ought to.

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) January 7, 2012, 3:56pm (report abuse)

No AO in Thailand

The U.S. Army says Agent Orange was not used in Thailand other than a brief test at a remote Royal Thai Army Replacement Base at Pranburi. No aerial spraying was performed and only 5 U.S. Army troops were ever assigned there. The U.S. Air Force says no Agent Orange was used in Thailand. Alvin Young, a private researcher hired by the U.S. Air Force, can find no evidence of AO usage in Thailand. The DVA says their research indicated no use of Agent Orange in Thailand. The VAOGC after extensive research of the Congressional Record can find no evidence Congress ever intended to compensate veterans that served outside the geographic limits of the Republic of Vietnam and finally the Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit ruled against the Haas claim. The Supreme Court refused to hear the appeal.

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) January 7, 2012, 3:56pm (report abuse)

Evidence

It's about the evidence. When ya find the evidence of BWN exposure, get back to us. Congress ain't gonna enact new legislation unless they see evidence of exposure and there ain't any.

Nothing has changed wrt AO in the past several years. It is what it is.

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) January 7, 2012, 3:57pm (report abuse)

Sediment

Contamination Status of Dioxins in Sediments from Saigon River Estuary, Vietnam

(Received 29 January 2009; accepted 30 March 2009)

http://www.terrapub.co.jp/onli…proceedings/ec/02/pdf/ERA4.pdf

or

http://tinyurl.com/29xz3hv

In core sediment analysis, no temporal trend either in total concentration or isomer profile was observed. 2,3,7,8-TCDD, which was present in chemical defoliants, was not detected in any of the layers analyzed.

Folks:

A study 2 years ago showed no dioxin in sediments from the Saigon River Estuary

No dioxin ever escaped the land mass to be distilled with drinking water aboard ship.

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) January 7, 2012, 3:57pm (report abuse)

Wind Drift

An aircraft dropping a mist of 300-350 microns will be 88% on size but the other 12% could be larger or smaller. That same aircraft dropping from 150ft (standard altitude) and allowing for a minimum droplet size of 100 microns will only drift off target 1500ft, about a quarter mile. The 88% will have drifted only a couple hundred feet. As far as I can tell, most of the load will be dropped on target and little or none will have drifted offshore. In my opinion, wind drift is nonsense.

HERBICIDES USED IN SOUTHEAST ASIA

Robert A. Darrow, Kent R. Irish, Charles E. Minarik

United States Army Plant Sciences Laboratories

Fort Detrick

Fredrick, MD 21701

August 1969

Technical Report SA0Q-TR-69-11078

http://tinyurl.com/22qs7cb

or

http://tinyurl.com/ylrudqc

see document page 29

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) January 7, 2012, 3:58pm (report abuse)

THE DIOXIN PROBLEM

http://qcpages.qc.edu/CBNS/dxnsum.html#problem

old link no longer works

In this age of environmental pollution, one group of chemicals stands out as the most perilous toxic threat to the general population, and yet, thus far peculiarly resistant to effective remedial action: dioxin. The threat is apparent from EPA's September 1994 dioxin reassessment, which concluded that:

Our daily intake of dioxin and dioxin-like chemicals creates a lifetime cancer risk in the general U.S. population that is 500-1,000 times greater than the "acceptable" one in a million risk. In pregnant women long-term damage to the fetus may also occur close to this level of exposure, leading to birth defects, disrupted sexual development, and damage to the nervous and immune systems.

Nearly all of the general population's exposure to dioxin comes from food, two-thirds of it from milk, dairy products and beef, major components of the diet.

continued...

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) January 7, 2012, 3:58pm (report abuse)

...continued

Hey kiddies; This is in the US, not Vietnam. In the end your miniscule service in Vietnam may have been good for tour health. He, he

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) January 7, 2012, 3:58pm (report abuse)

"VA determined that herbicides used on the Thailand base perimeters may have been tactical and procured from Vietnam, or a strong, commercial type resembling tactical herbicides."

No, actually they didn't determine that. It was written by some VA apparatchik that didn't have a clue. It is wrong, period. I don't care who wrote it. It is still wrong. It is just some anonymous apparatchiks unsubstantiated OPINION. He offers NO authoritative evidence to support his statement other than a lame attempt to point to CHECO reports. Well, bunky I've read them too all 250+ and there is not one word of Agent Orange in Thailand, nore is there any BS about procurment from Vietnam or stronger? commercial stuff.

"Well people should get up to date a little more."

I am up to date I read that site several years ago and it is the same today as it was then. You're just figureing it out.

continued...

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) January 7, 2012, 3:58pm (report abuse)

...continued

"TO MANY PEOPLE THAT WENT TO WAR AND HELPED THIS COUNTRY ARE LEFT IN THE DUST "

...and too dam many of them are looking to augment their retirement. None got left in the dust as none were exposed to herbicide. they just want the handout.

"If it was not true i dont think they would use it on there web site would they?"

Yeah, actually they would. Remember the VSM fiasco that everyone was complaining about? That was another example of someone that didn't know creating mis information. Wrong is wrong.

There is no evidence that AO was used in Thailand. When you find that evidence, get back to us. You can't do that because it don't no how exist

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) January 7, 2012, 3:59pm (report abuse)

On March 29, 1990, Secretary Derwinski announced that VA would recognize non-Hodgkin's lymphoma for service connection based on service in Vietnam. On May 18, 1990, Secretary Derwinski announced that VA would recognize soft tissue sarcoma for service connection based on exposure to doxin-containing herbicides.

The non-Hodgkin's lymphoma decision followed release of results of the Centers for Disease Control Selected Cancers Study which suggested that Vietnam veterans are at increased risk of developing non-Hodgkin's lymphoma. For additional infomration regarding non-Hodgkin's lymphoma, see Agent Orange Brief, D3. For additional information regarding the Selected Cancers Study, see Agent Orange Brief, C3.

continued...

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) January 7, 2012, 3:59pm (report abuse)

...continued

The decision about soft tissue sarcoma was made after the Veterans' Advisory Committee on Environmental Hazards (a group established by law to provide advice to the Secretary of Veterans Affairs) concluded that it is as likely as not that there is a significant statistical association between exposure to a dioxin-containing herbicide and the development of soft tissue sarcoma. For additional information regarding soft tissue sarcomas, see Agent Orange Brief, D4.

In June 1990, the proposed regulations regarding the non-Hodgkin's lymphoma decision were published in the Federal Register for public comment. (See 55 Fed Reg. 25339, June 21, 1990). In October 1990, the final implementing regulations were published in the Federal Register. (See 55 Fed. Reg. 43123, October 26, 1990).

Note: NHL presumption for BWN is based on increased incidence of NHL, NOT exposure.

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) January 7, 2012, 3:59pm (report abuse)

The issue on this website is whether or not BWN and all the other wanna-be welfare scammers should be entitled to a handout for failing to plan for their old age retirement because there certainly is no evidence that their problems were even remotely caused by their miniscule military service.

They spend a year in Vietnam and expect the taxpayer to fund their retirement while they lived the other 65 years of their miserable life here in toxic USA being exposed to every chemical under the sun. No one sues the chemical companies because there's no evidence that would stand up in court, yet they expect their fellow citizens to pony up.

Sounds like welfare to me.

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) January 7, 2012, 4:00pm (report abuse)

This Bill, has no merit because there is no qualified evidence that dioxin ever left the land mass of Vietnam and/or was ever available in the offshore environment in sufficient quantity to harm units operating there. Despite all the protestations, the IOM has been unable to find any

This Bill proposes to make a mockery of veterans disability compensation by giving money to those not disabled by military service. IOW, a handout. Something for nothing

This Bill, more appropriately, should be called the Veterans Handout Bill.

Why do I call this the Veterans Handout Bill? ...because compensation is intended to offset a veterans disabling condition suffered in service to the people. This Bill asks the people to pay veterans money when there is no evidence a loss was incurred in service, IOW, a handout.

Every disabled veteran should be outraged that some folks are seeking to use veterans compensation to augment their retirement

AndyJohnson

(logged-in user) January 7, 2012, 4:00pm (report abuse)

Definition: hand·out

–noun Informal.

1.a portion of food or the like given to a needy person, as a beggar.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/handout

Definition: hand·out

Function: noun

1 : a portion of food, clothing, or money given to or as if to a beggar

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/handout

Definition: welfare

–noun

3.financial or other assistance to an individual or family from a city, state, or national government: Thousands of jobless people in this city would starve if it weren't for welfare.

4.(initial capital letter) Informal. a governmental agency that provides funds and aid to people in need, esp. those unable to work.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/welfare

Definition: compensation

–noun

1. the act or state of compensating.

2. the state of being compensated.

3. something given or received as an equivalent for debt, loss, injury, suffering, lack, etc

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/compensation

iknow

January 7, 2012, 9:08pm (report abuse)

ANDY JOHNSON DOESNT LIKE THE IOM REPORT.TOO BADDD

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