S. 1939, The Agent Orange Equity Act of 2009 (2797 comments ↓ | 10 wiki edits: view article ↓)
- This item is from the 111th Congress (2009-2010) and is no longer current. Comments, voting, and wiki editing have been disabled, and the cost/savings estimate has been frozen.
S. 1939 would amend title 38, United States Code, to clarify presumptions relating to the exposure of certain veterans who served in the vicinity of the Republic of Vietnam.
Detailed Summary
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Status of the Legislation
Latest Major Action: 5/19/2010: Senate committee/subcommittee actions. Status: Committee on Veterans' Affairs. Date of scheduled hearing. SR-418. 9:30 a.m.
Points Against
The VA published a Notice in the Federal Register and the following was their response to public comment. It pretty much explains the reasons this bill should be rejected. You can read the entire thing at the link provided:
http:edocket.access.gpo.gov/2007/E7-22983.htm
In any event they have determined there is no QUALIFIED evidence. Qualified is defined as âstatistically significant, capable of replication and has withstood peer review.â The NRCET Study (Australian Study) is none of these. The evidentary requirements are defined by the Agent Orange Act of 1991 PL102-4: http:www7.nationalacademies.org/ocga/laws/PL102-4.asp
Too long to post here, read it yourself at the links provided
The Following excerpt is from the FR.
Several commenters suggested that rescission of the Manual M21-1 is inconsistent with scientific articles purportedly showing that herbicide exposure in offshore waters could have occurred by virtue of wind drift or consumption of drinking water distilled from estuarine waters. We make no change based on these comments for the reasons explained below. Several commenters cited the Australian study as proof that American military personnel on ships off the coast of Vietnam were exposed to herbicides in drinking water.
The Australian study assumed that ocean water near estuarine sources could contain dioxin if dioxin had been used over adjacent land. It then noted that Australian Navy boats distilled water, obtained primarily from locations near such estuarine sources, to use as drinking water. Based on these factual predicates, the study found that the distillation process used by those boats did not remove dioxin when dioxin was added to salt water and the distillation process was performed in a laboratory, but, instead, the distillation concentrated the dioxin level in the water.
The study was not peer reviewed or published and, to our knowledge, has never been cited in any subsequent reputable study concerning herbicide exposure. Even assuming that U.S. Navy ships used a distillation process to obtain drinking water from the ocean (VA has been unable to obtain official confirmation of this from the Department of Defense), VA's scientific experts have noted many problems with this study that caution against placing significant reliance on the study. In particular, the authors of the Australian study themselves noted that there was substantial uncertainty in their assumptions regarding the concentration of dioxin that may have been present in estuarine waters during the Vietnam War.
Further, although distillation concentrated the dioxin level in the water, the concentrating effect was shown to depend upon the amount of sediment in the water, such that a large sediment level, consistent with estuarine waters, could significantly reduce the concentrating effect. Moreover, even with the concentrating effect found in the Australian study, the levels of exposure estimated in this study are not at all comparable to the exposures experienced by veterans who served on land where herbicides were applied. This is true even if we were to assume that a person drank only such distilled water and did so for an extended tour.
A few commenters cited other studies that discuss generally the nature of air and water pollution, the manner in which certain pesticides can be borne by the wind, and the effect of water-borne pesticides on marine life. None of these studies bears significantly on the specific question whether herbicides used, and as administered, by the U.S. military during the Vietnam Era could have been blown by the wind into the ocean, or into inland waters that then carried the chemical into the ocean, to reach a boat offshore and result in any significant risk of herbicide exposure. Similarly, the studies do not suggest that if those herbicides could have been so transported, they could then be transmitted through a distillation process (assuming that one was used by U.S. ships) into drinking water, and then consumed by military personnel in any measurable quantity. One study merely indicated that Agent Orange is carcinogenic, a fact that VA does not dispute. Further, even if the studies show that herbicide exposure in offshore waters is possible in some circumstances, they do not provide a basis for maintaining a provision construed by the Veterans Court to impose a broad presumption of herbicide exposure based on receipt of the Vietnam Service Medal (VSM).
The purpose of the presumption of herbicide exposure is to eliminate the need for case-by-case showings of exposure where there is a reasonable basis for presuming the fact. The possibility of exposure in certain circumstances of offshore service does not, in our view, establish a basis for presuming exposure in all circumstances involving offshore service or receipt of the VSM. In our view, the cited studies are of minimal relevance to the instant action for the additional reason that the M21-1 provisions were not intended to establish a substantive rule, but to implement the congressional intent underlying the statutory presumption of herbicide exposure in 38 U.S.C. 1116(f). The commenters do not suggest that Congress relied upon the cited studies in enacting Sec. 1116(f), but appear only to argue that the cited studies would independently support a presumption of herbicide exposure for veterans who served offshore. It is VA's policy not to issue substantive rules through its M21-1 manual or other internal documents, but through notice-and-comment rule making and subsequent codification in the Code of Federal Regulations. Because the Veterans Court's conclusion that the M21-1 provisions established a substantive rule is inconsistent with VA's intent in issuing the M21-1 provision, VA is rescinding the M21-1 provisions. As stated in the notice of proposed rule making, VA will shortly issue a proposed revision to its governing regulation, 38 CFR 3.307(a)(6)(iii), to clarify our interpretation of 38 U.S.C. 1116(f). The issue of whether and to what extent the cited studies bear upon the congressional intent underlying Sec. 1116(f) is most appropriately dealt with in the context of that rulemaking. Additionally, we note that many VSM recipients did not even serve on ships off the shore of Vietnam. The VSM was awarded to all members of the Armed Forces who served between July 3, 1965, and March 28, 1973, either: (1) in Vietnam and contiguous waters and airspace thereover; or
(2) in Thailand, Laos, or Cambodia, or airspace thereover, in direct support of operations in Vietnam. See Army Reg.
600-8-22, para. 2-13.). Clearly, the studies cited by commenters would not affect our decision as to veterans who served in Thailand, Laos, or Cambodia, or in airspace far above the jungles of Vietnam. If commenters relying on these studies believe the studies are relevant to the question whether Vietnam service should be extended to the waters off the shore of Vietnam, we direct readers to the revision of 38 CFR
3.307(a)(6)(iii), which we expect will be proposed before May 2008, and which will directly address the requirement of service on land in Vietnam. For the foregoing reasons, the Australian study and the other studies cited by commenters do not cause us to alter our decision to rescind the Manual M21-1 provisions. Similar to the above category of comments, several commenters argued that there is no scientific basis for VA to take the position that veterans who served on ships were not exposed to herbicides during that service. These comments misunderstand the nature of VA's action. This action would not result in a finding or presumption that veterans who served on ships were not exposed to herbicides; it would merely clarify that such veterans are not automatically presumed to have been exposed and that the issue of exposure must be resolved on a case-by- case basis to the same extent as most other factual issues involved in claims for VA benefits.
Comments Based on Personal Experience
The second group of comments received related the personal experiences of veterans who suffer from cancer and other ailments that can be caused by exposure to Agent Orange. While we are sympathetic to the needs of these veterans, Congress has been quite clear that VA cannot presume exposure to herbicides simply because a veteran has a disease linked to exposure to herbicides. Again, section 1116(f) states that a veteran with such a disease is presumed exposed only if he ``served in the Republic of Vietnam.'' To the extent that these commenters seek relief in their own individual cases, these comments are beyond the scope of this notice. The issue presented here is whether VA should rescind a Manual M21-1 provision that the Veterans Court misinterpreted as requiring VA to presume exposure for any veteran who received the VSM.
Do the math yourself folks. This Bill is just an excuse for a free go at the taxpayers wallet. In other words, a handout.
Points in Favor
Point # 1. The epidemiologic evidence itself supports a broader definition of service in Vietnam to serve as a surrogate for presumed exposure to Agent Orange or other herbicides sprayed in Vietnam. For instance, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, CDC-1990, study of selected cancers among Vietnam veterans found that the risk of the classic AO cancer, non-Hodgkins lymphoma was highest and most significant among Blue Water Navy veterans. More recently, the AFHS has demonstrated that TCDD concentrations in Vietnam-era veterans deployed to Southeast Asia, not just the Vietnam veteran Ranch Hand subjects, are generally higher than US background concentrations, although notably lower than in Ranch Hand sprayers themselves. Veterans and Agent Orange: Update 2008, http:www.nap.edu/catalog/12662.html, Chapter 10 Page 464, ö6.
Point # 2. The evidence that this committee has reviewed makes a definition of Vietnam service limited to those who set foot on Vietnamese soil seem inappropriate. The ongoing series of hearings and appeals in the US Court of Appeals for Veterans Claims (Haas v. Nicholson) reflect this controversy. As discussed in Chapter 3, there is little reason to believe that exposure of US military personnel to the herbicides sprayed in Vietnam was limited to those who actually set foot in the Republic of Vietnam. Having reviewed the Australian report (NRCET, 2002) on the fate of TCDD when sea water is distilled to produce drinking water, the committee is convinced that this would provide a feasible route of exposure for personnel in the Blue Water Navy, which might have been supplemented by drift from herbicide spraying. Veterans and Agent Orange: Update 2008, http:www.nap.edu/catalog/12662.html, Chapter 10 Page 464, ö5.
Point # 3. The committee notes that all previous VAO committees evaluating the epidemiologic evidence concerning exposure to the herbicides sprayed in Vietnam and the full spectrum of health outcomes have always considered information from naval Vietnam veterans to pertain to possible Agent Orange exposure. This committee considers that exposure assignment to be appropriate. No new studies considered in this update contained Navy-specific information, but such information has been factored into the evolving conclusions of VAO committees. Veterans and Agent Orange: Update 2008, http:www.nap.edu/catalog/12662.html, Chapter 8 Page 464, ö2.
Point # 4. Given the available evidence, the committee recommends that members of the Blue Water Navy should not be excluded from the set of Vietnam-era veterans with presumed herbicide exposure. Veterans and Agent Orange: Update 2008, http:www.nap.edu/catalog/12662.html, Chapter 10 Page 464, ö3.
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Armed forces and national security, Asia, Conflicts and wars, Disability assistance, Hazardous wastes and toxic substances, Veterans' pensions and compensation, Vietnam
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Visitor Comments
FrankGQ
October 28, 2009, 3:29pm (report abuse)Let's All vote Yes above!
LETS;S ALL SUPORT ALL VETS OF ALL WARS.
THANK YOU.
FRANK
CRTAgain
(logged-in user) October 28, 2009, 8:12pm (report abuse)More of the same old stuff. Welfare for those whiners who were not exposed but want to get paid anyway.
CDB
October 28, 2009, 8:33pm (report abuse)So here we are again. It won't pass the house and it sure won't pass the senate.
AndyJohnson
(logged-in user) October 30, 2009, 8:16pm (report abuse)"So here we are again. It won't pass the house and it sure won't pass the senate"
Yeah, but it provides the opponents with endless entertainment and keeps welfare proponents busy
AndyJohnson
(logged-in user) October 30, 2009, 8:19pm (report abuse)This Bill, S 1939 has no more merit than H.R. 3491, which has none of its own merit because there is no qualified evidence that EC or any digestive system cancers are linked to herbicide exposure.
This Bill proposes to make a mockery of veterans disability compensation by compensating those that were not disabled by military service. In other words, a handout. Something for nothing.
This Bill, more appropriately, should be called the Widows Welfare Bill.
Every disabled veteran should be outraged that some folks are seeking to use veterans compensation for personal gain.
Ron Per
November 1, 2009, 7:30am (report abuse)"Every disabled veteran should be outraged that some folks are seeking to use veterans compensation for personal gain". I presume that some folks can't seem to fathom ,that there are around 800'000 thousand Blue Water Navy "Fakers" out here just waiting to screw the government out of anything they can get their wretched fingers on! I guess that $2000.00+ a month for getting "Fragged in the ass by friendly fire " is not enough for you! Grow up and face the fact that more people were injured by chemical poisoning than even you can contemplate!
...
November 2, 2009, 4:08pm (report abuse)SOSDD
BLAH
November 3, 2009, 1:26am (report abuse)BLAH
BLAH
BLAH
BLAH
BLAH
BLAH
BLAH
BLAH
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BLAH
...
November 3, 2009, 2:40am (report abuse)Looks like Andy at it again
AndyJohnson
(logged-in user) November 3, 2009, 10:09pm (report abuse)Andy uses a registered account. It appears you've attracted a fan club.
Funny guy
November 3, 2009, 10:24pm (report abuse)In addition to his registered account, "AndyJohnson" posts here under several aliases, using them to create his posse to make it seem as if here were not the Lone Ranger -
aka CRT, Tracer and perhaps others
...
November 3, 2009, 10:31pm (report abuse)We know, but better not pass it on, Andy might be watchin
AndyJohnson
(logged-in user) November 4, 2009, 12:37am (report abuse)This Bill, S 1939 has no more merit than H.R. 2254, which has none of its own merit because there is no qualified evidence that dioxin ever left the land mass of Vietnam and/or was ever available in the offshore environment in sufficient quantity to harm units operating there. Despite all the protestations, the IOM has been unable to find any.
This Bill proposes to make a mockery of veterans disability compensation by compensating those that were not disabled by military service. In other words, a handout. Something for nothing.
This Bill, more appropriately, should be called the Veterans Handout Bill.
Every disabled veteran should be outraged that some folks are seeking to use veterans compensation for personal gain.
Tracer
November 4, 2009, 12:48am (report abuse)Here's a challenge for you folks.
Ask the webmaster to look at the IP addresses for all these different users you claim are all Andy Johnson. Since I know I am not Andy I suspect the others are not either. The IP's should show one way or the other.
But that would mean you were wrong so I doubt you would do that.
Folks like the "..." who just want to make noise without leaving a trace. Kind of like how they have gone through life, never accomplishing anything. As if they were never here. Poor excuse for a human being.
to tracer
November 4, 2009, 7:36am (report abuse)you know, it's funny how you show up just at the right time...
as for IP addresses, do you not understand the issue of privacy?
Tracer
November 4, 2009, 1:52pm (report abuse)Privacy has nothing to do with it. Unless the webmaster uses a whois search all he or she will see is the actual IP address, not who is using it. Compare the addresses to see if they are the same. You will find that mine is not the same as anyone elses in the list posted above. That should provide some resolution to your concern.
As to when I show up, I'm an old fart who has trouble sleeping. I may show up at any time.
Have a nice day now.
....
November 4, 2009, 3:37pm (report abuse)Andy, I have to admit, you must have made an "A" in science.....too bad the far side wwas added by you and the real grade was an "F"
Sharon Perry
November 9, 2009, 9:26am (report abuse)Just in: Vietnam veteran exposed to agent orange stateside (this means not boots on the ground in Vietnam for veterans exposed to agent orange) just won the first ever VA claim for Agent Orange exposure, "inside the Continental United States." The claim was granted for Chloracne, Diabetes and Heart Disease with ICD implant, as due to Agent Orange exposure at Fort Gordon GA., in the years 1967-1969. The link: http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/11/5/800811/-First-Agent-Orange-case-in-US-is-won-by-a-veteran# Have a nice day everyone!!
AndyJohnson
(logged-in user) November 9, 2009, 10:10am (report abuse)...and this was a direct claim as SNM's records show chloracne in service and service at a location where herbicide was used. This is not a presumptive claim.
.
November 10, 2009, 12:56am (report abuse)andy just won't quit.
what was the case in new york state for ao that you found?
/
thanks.
...
November 10, 2009, 7:55pm (report abuse)Andy....be careful, gining information from a persons medical records IS a VIOLATION of VA records policy....
To ...
November 10, 2009, 9:46pm (report abuse)Get real, the information is in an open record. Geez!
....
November 11, 2009, 12:33am (report abuse)Not if you work for the VA, I guess.......
.
November 12, 2009, 1:06am (report abuse)matter of public radio
you guys are some piece of work.
the case number is a part of the public domain.
..
November 12, 2009, 5:38pm (report abuse)"radio"? Mayhap you meant "record"?
AndyJohnson
(logged-in user) November 13, 2009, 5:00pm (report abuse)This must be the shallow end of the gene pool.
Privacy information is information about an individual including, but not limited to, personal identifying information, social security number, payroll number, information on education, financial transactions, medical history including results of drug testing, and criminal or employment history.
The Privacy Act addresses information contained in "Federal systems of records."
The Privacy Act requires that privacy information in the custody of the Federal Government be protected from unauthorized disclosure and provides for both civil and criminal penalties for violation of the act.
Note this is about government releasing this info not about an individual doing so.
AndyJohnson
(logged-in user) November 13, 2009, 5:01pm (report abuse)Medical records are protected by HIPAA privacy rule which govern how custodians of medical information must protect it from unauthorized disclosure. This has nothing to do with an individual revealing medical information unless they were a custodian.
Corky
(logged-in user) November 14, 2009, 1:07pm (report abuse)All you moaners need to get off your lazy asses and stop trying to cheat the people out of free money. Nothing but a bunch of crybaby losers.
to corky
November 14, 2009, 5:07pm (report abuse)yup, just as I suspected, the dumb a** follows his mentor!
Corky
(logged-in user) November 14, 2009, 7:35pm (report abuse)Cry babies all of you. You can't help yourselves I know. Too bad you are all such a bunch of panzy-@ss losers. Sit on your a$$es and whine. Nobody cares.
.
November 15, 2009, 12:38am (report abuse)presumptation is presumption period
to "the corknandy show
November 15, 2009, 2:20am (report abuse)SOSDD
Corky
(logged-in user) November 15, 2009, 10:01am (report abuse)"presumptation is presumption period"
Whoopee! All of you are stealing from the government. Too damn lazy to get off your a$$. Thieves - the whole bunch of you.
To the "Andy and Corky(quirky) Show
November 16, 2009, 11:39pm (report abuse)The link you are looking for is the IOM Agent Orange Report of 2008. It is the research that the House, is using, The Secratary of Veterans Affairs and the Senate is using. Now take your comedy show and hit the road!!!!
Corky
(logged-in user) November 18, 2009, 12:55am (report abuse)All you so-called veterans are a bunch of lying, cheating, thieving, scumbags. None of you deserve one thin dime but all of you want that free ride. Worthless, all of you.
MSGT FOSTER
November 18, 2009, 4:54am (report abuse)TRY PREPARING, MIXING AND SPRAYING THE STUFF LITTLE WONDERFUKS AND 15,000 GREATER THAN YOUR EXPOSURE WITH DILUTED CRAP FROM THE AIR ...TRY MORE THAN TWENTY YRS ACTIVE DUTY INSTEAD OF 12 MONTHS, TRY SEVERE HEART DISEASE, DIABETES II, PROSTATE CANCER, ESOPHEGEAL CANCER, DEMENTIA, HIGH BLOOD PRESSURE, SEVERE EDEMA, IMMEDIATE STERILITY ON DIRECT CONTACT WITH NON DILUTED FORMS OF SUPER AO, THE BUFFS SHOULD HAVE DROP A FEW ON YOU IDIOTS
Corky
(logged-in user) November 18, 2009, 3:24pm (report abuse)MSgt Foster is a prime example of the kind of whining crybaby who wants everyone else to support his lazy ass.
All you so-called veterans are a bunch of lying, cheating, thieving, scumbags. None of you deserve one thin dime but all of you want that free ride. Worthless, all of you.
Sal
November 18, 2009, 10:56pm (report abuse)I think Andy suffers from PTSD/mulitiple personality disorder. Take your meds, Andy/Cordydork. Mommy must not be around to remind you.
To Corky/Andy
November 19, 2009, 2:38am (report abuse)I think a couple o' them BUFFs dropped one on the crapper you were sittin on and you're still shi**in the results!
Corky
(logged-in user) November 20, 2009, 1:10am (report abuse)Losers and scumbags, all of you. All you want is a free ride on the gravytrain. So sorry it has already left the station and you missed it. Too bad, sucker.
AndyJohnson
(logged-in user) November 21, 2009, 12:48am (report abuse)This Bill, S 1939 has no more merit than H.R. 2254, which has none of its own merit because there is no qualified evidence that dioxin ever left the land mass of Vietnam and/or was ever available in the offshore environment in sufficient quantity to harm units operating there. Despite all the protestations, the IOM has been unable to find any.
This Bill proposes to make a mockery of veterans disability compensation by compensating those that were not disabled by military service. In other words, a handout. Something for nothing.
This Bill, more appropriately, should be called the Veterans Handout Bill.
Every disabled veteran should be outraged that some folks are seeking to use veterans compensation for personal gain.
TO THOSE IN FAVOR
November 21, 2009, 8:08am (report abuse)PLEASE CONTACT YOUR CONGRESSMEN AND ASK THEM TO CO-SPONSOR AND SUPPORT THIS BILL, H.R. 2254 and H. R. 3491. IT'S EASY AND YOU CAN DO IT BY SIMPLY E-MAILING THEM.
WASTING YOUR TIME RESPONDING TO THE NAYSAYERS ON THIS SITE WILL NOT HELP TO GET THIS BILL PASSED AND IT JUST FEEDS INTO THEIR NEED TO DEBATE. IGNORE THEM AND THEY JUST MIGHT FIND SOMETHING BETTER TO DO WITH THEIR TIME.
THANKS!!
For All Who Oppose This Bill
November 21, 2009, 5:11pm (report abuse)Please contact your legislators and tell them there is no evidence that any BW sailor was ever harmed by herbicides and there is no evidence that AO was ever used in Thailand or Guam in quantities that necessitate presumption. Tell them you oppose this Bill and you want them to vote against it.
TOTHOSE IN FAVOR
November 22, 2009, 7:44am (report abuse)PLEASE CONTACT YOUR CONGRESSMEN AND ASK THEM TO CO-SPONSOR AND SUPPORT THIS BILL AND H.R. 3491 IT'S EASY AND YOU CAN DO IT BY SIMPLY E-MAILING THEM.
WASTING YOUR TIME RESPONDING TO THE NAYSAYERS ON THIS SITE WILL NOT HELP TO GET THIS BILL PASSED AND IT JUST FEEDS INTO THEIR NEED TO DEBATE. IGNORE THEM AND THEY JUST MIGHT FIND SOMETHING BETTER TO DO WITH THEIR TIME.
THANKS!!
For All Who Oppose This Bill
November 22, 2009, 1:43pm (report abuse)Please contact your legislators and tell them there is no evidence that any BW sailor was ever harmed by herbicides and there is no evidence that AO was ever used in Thailand or Guam in quantities that necessitate presumption. Tell them you oppose this Bill and you want them to vote against it.
The Corky
November 22, 2009, 1:50pm (report abuse)Lying, thieving, no-account scam artists. That's all you so-called veterans really are. Trying to get on the gravytrain for some of that free money.
FOR THOSE IN FAVOR OF THIS BILL
November 23, 2009, 7:22am (report abuse)PLEASE CONTACT YOUR CONGRESSMEN AND ASK THEM TO CO-SPONSOR AND SUPPORT THIS BILL AND H. R. 3491. IT'S EASY AND YOU CAN DO IT BY SIMPLY E-MAILING THEM.
WASTING YOUR TIME RESPONDING TO THE NAYSAYERS ON THIS SITE WILL NOT HELP TO GET THIS BILL PASSED AND IT JUST FEEDS INTO THEIR NEED TO DEBATE. IGNORE THEM AND THEY JUST MIGHT FIND SOMETHING BETTER TO DO WITH THEIR TIME.
THANKS!!
For All Who Oppose This Bill
November 23, 2009, 10:55am (report abuse)Please contact your legislators and tell them there is no evidence that any BW sailor was ever harmed by herbicides and there is no evidence that AO was ever used in Thailand or Guam in quantities that necessitate presumption. Tell them you oppose this Bill and you want them to vote against it.
The Corky
November 24, 2009, 9:58pm (report abuse)All those who favor this bill are just trying to sucker the government into giving away money to a bunch of thieves and no-account scumbags.
For Those Who Oppose This Bill
November 25, 2009, 11:06am (report abuse)Please contact your legislators and tell them there is NO evidence that bluewater sailors were harmed by herbicides and that there is NO evidence that Agent Orange was used in Thailand or Guam in quantities that necessitate presumption. Insist that they look at the validated scientific evidence that clearly shows this bill is a complete farce. Tell them you OPPOSE this bill because it is wrong and that you want them to vote AGAINST it.
Jason B
November 27, 2009, 1:22am (report abuse)Over my lifetime I have worked with a lot of folks who have reason to complain – the unemployed, the homeless, folks on welfare, terminally ill patients in a hospice. And not one of these groups has the intensity of whining that a bunch of veterans can generate. I really suspect that the veterans whine can be heard in outer space. It is that loud. Why don’t all of you moaning *ssholes take a break and go crawl in a hole someplace. Give the rest of us some time to recuperate from your constant pissing and moaning.
THE CORKY
November 28, 2009, 12:15am (report abuse)CORKY NEEDS ONE WHERE THE SUN DONT SHINE..HE MUST BE QUEER
to Jason B
November 28, 2009, 2:23am (report abuse)You haven't worked with any of the folks you profess to, otherwise you would KNOW whining!
Jason B
November 28, 2009, 5:31pm (report abuse)I don't care what you call it - all of you seem to have the whine down to a science. All I see and hear is whine, whine, whine. You all sound worse than a bunch of crybabies. Grow up and act like human beings for once.
For Those Who Oppose This Bill
November 28, 2009, 5:36pm (report abuse)Please contact your legislators and tell them there is NO evidence that bluewater sailors were harmed by herbicides and that there is NO evidence that Agent Orange was used in Thailand or Guam in quantities that necessitate presumption. Insist that they look at the validated scientific evidence that clearly shows this bill is a complete farce. Tell them you OPPOSE this bill because it is wrong and that you want them to vote AGAINST it.
The Corky
November 29, 2009, 4:21pm (report abuse)You so-called veterans act like you did some wonderful thing, as if your military time was some great calling. BS! It was a job, you got paid. Now you want more. You don't deserve anything more. Go crawl back in your holes and quit whining.
Anyone in favor of this bill
November 29, 2009, 8:28pm (report abuse)is just another of those scumbags who would have everyone believe the bw sailers were exposed to herbicides onboard ships. Fortunately, any person of average intelligence can see it for what it is - lies from thieves and scammers who want to get on the free money ride.
Ray L. Coughlin
December 9, 2009, 11:04am (report abuse)Quoting Jason B. "Over my lifetime I have worked with a lot of folks who have reason to complain – the unemployed, the homeless, folks on welfare, terminally ill patients in a hospice. And not one of these groups has the intensity of whining that a bunch of veterans can generate."
WhatYOU work? YOU DON'T Whine? You are a total Ignoramus. Vets didn't ask to to defend your dumb ass. You went to Canada or whateaver you had to do to NOT do your duty.
We were forced to do it for you and your kind. Now step up to the plate and do your duty. Help protect those who have managed to thus far survive AO problems and not yet convientely died for you. Time to repay those who did and continue to step up for the country in order for you to live and continue to spread your personal hate of America and Americans.
If your an American, honor those that have defended you. Most of the Vets involved have spent their
lives helping, not hurting their country. Contact congress w/ YES on this.
Poor Ray Coughlin
December 9, 2009, 3:32pm (report abuse)You are a big bag of wind looking for someone who will believe your BS. You are a prime example of the whine we hear every time one of you scumbags shows up. You did nothing to be proud of and now you want a free shot at some free money. Go crawl back in your hole.
Billy Ray Wilson
December 10, 2009, 9:08pm (report abuse)I do not know anything about naval operations so I can not respond to the so-called Blue Water VA Claims; however, I can state that I performed duty as a combat controller at Moung Soung (LS-108), Laos in June 1969. During this period, I and the munitions and aircraft maintenance personnel with me were subject to smoke and dust from the dirt runway and the surrounding area.
Moreover, the North Vientnamese, Chinese, Pathet Lao were using all available forces to re-capture the Plane de Jares and all of MRI and MR II. Agent Orange spraying was not uncommon in Laos. Spraying was conducted by Air America, Royal Lao Air Force, and other agencies. Likewise during the same period, the U.S. Government was conducting massive spraying operations in Cambodia. From research, the aircurrents would bring evidence of the Agent Orange in to Laos. I've stood a number of days by a MRK108 Radio Jeep expecting to be killed in the Monsoons. I have Diabetes Mellitus Type II and COPD.
AndyJohnson
(logged-in user) December 11, 2009, 10:22am (report abuse)"Help protect those who have managed to thus far survive AO problems and not yet convientely died for you."
Most Americans have little or no problem with compensating and providing health care who was diminished in some way by his service.
The problem is that this legislation, S. 1939 is a Senate Bill that proposes to add just about every swinging Tom, Dick and Harry to those eligible for consideration of presumptive AO exposure. This means Blue Water Navy, High level bombing and those in Thailand. IOW, everyone with a VSM including those that never got w/i 2000 miles of Vietnam.
Fact of the matter is there is no documented evidence that any of these folks were ever harmed. Most of these folks are looking to have their neighbors and the American citizen pay for their misfortune which was not caused by their service. I call that a handout and I oppose this Bill on those grounds.
If you have evidence contrary to what I've said, provide a link. Congress will want to see it.
AndyJohnson
(logged-in user) December 11, 2009, 10:56am (report abuse)"Agent Orange spraying was not uncommon in Laos."
It certainly wasn't common, although I have read reports that it did occur on occasion.
"Spraying was conducted by Air America, Royal Lao Air Force, and other agencies."
Nonsense, the CIA had no aircraft with which to spray anything. Any spraying in Laos eas done by Ranchhand Aircraft and crews. The records of all their spray missions is a matter of record. Look it up
"Likewise during the same period, the U.S. Government was conducting massive spraying operations in Cambodia."
Tat's also a matter of record, but I don't believe it was massive.
"I've stood a number of days by a MRK108 Radio Jeep expecting to be killed in the Monsoons."
Maybe, but no spraying ever took place on days when it rained.
continued...
AndyJohnson
(logged-in user) December 11, 2009, 10:57am (report abuse)...continued
"From research, the aircurrents would bring evidence of the Agent Orange in to Laos."
Nonsense! What research would that be? An aircraft dropping a mist of 300-350 microns will be 88% on size but the other 12% could be larger or smaller. That same aircraft dropping from 150ft (standard altitude) and allowing for a minimum droplet size of 100 microns will only drift off target 1500ft, about a quarter mile. The 88% will have drifted only a couple hundred feet. As far as I can tell, most of the load will be dropped on target and little or none will have drifted offshore. In my opinion, wind drift is nonsense.
HERBICIDES USED IN SOUTHEAST ASIA
http://tinyurl.com/ylrudqc
see page 29
I have Diabetes Mellitus Type II and COPD.
COPD is not known to be associated with Herbicide exposure. Perhaps, Old Age, Lifestyle Choices, genetics or luck of the draw.
AndyJohnson
(logged-in user) December 11, 2009, 11:00am (report abuse)"The 88% will have drifted only a couple hundred feet. "
That should have been The 12%, not 88%
Melody Kemp
December 29, 2009, 5:04am (report abuse)Agent Orange in Laos: Documentary Evidencehttp://www.ffrd.org/indochina/laosao.htm
I am a bit bemused by the lack of solidarity and the mutual antipathy amongst what I would hope might be grown men. I have always thought of the majority of American males to be barbarians and people like Andy and Corky seem to give me evidence for the affirmative. I guess I would recognise them in a crowd. Dressed in wooly mammoth hide and painted in wode.
Your science does not add up to the evidence on the ground Andy. I live in Laos and am researching a book on chemical spraying and other joys the US delivered here.. 77.5 million tonnes of sub-munitions..there is no pension plan for those kids, framers and women..
StefaniesDad
(logged-in user) December 29, 2009, 8:14pm (report abuse)Interesting article..
Comments Andy?
~Dave
"SUPPORT THIS BILL!! SUPPORT ALL VETS!!
AndyJohnson
(logged-in user) December 30, 2009, 10:12am (report abuse)"Comments Andy?"
Yeah, did you bother to check the source? This is one of those liberal pissing posts whining about the social injustice visited on locals as a consequence of the Vietnam war.
We already know there were a limited number of defoliation missions in Laos.
AndyJohnson
(logged-in user) December 30, 2009, 10:14am (report abuse)Oh, even a fast look at the tenor of kemps post should have given you your first clue.
AndyJohnson
(logged-in user) December 30, 2009, 10:17am (report abuse)This Bill, S 1939 has no more merit than H.R. 2254, which has none of its own merit because there is no qualified evidence that dioxin ever left the land mass of Vietnam and/or was ever available in the offshore environment in sufficient quantity to harm units operating there. Despite all the protestations, the IOM has been unable to find any.
This Bill proposes to make a mockery of veterans disability compensation by compensating those that were not disabled by military service. In other words, a handout. Something for nothing.
For those who oppose this bill
December 30, 2009, 10:18am (report abuse)Please contact your legislators and tell them there is NO qualified scientific evidence that bluewater sailors were harmed by herbicides and that there is NO evidence that Agent Orange was used in Thailand or Guam in quantities that necessitate presumption. Insist they examine qualified scientific evidence. Tell them you OPPOSE this bill because the scientific evidence does not support harm to these veterans and that you want them to vote AGAINST it should it ever come to the floor.
StefaniesDad
(logged-in user) January 3, 2010, 7:20pm (report abuse)ANDY JOHNSON IS UNCOVERED AS A FRAUD!!
Johnson is at least three (3) fake posters ("for those who oppose this bill", "..." and "the dioxin problem") under Andy's IP address.. enough to make him go away for good.. I'm suggesting this to the webmaster.. this fraud is toast!! He must really hate veterans..
CHALLENGE TO ANDY - Do you still DENY that you DO post as others on this board to try to get your point across?
Just answer the question please.. YOU CAN'T ANSWER IT BECAUSE YOU HAVE BEEN EXPOSED!
NOW EVERYONE KNOWS!!
ANDY's posts have NO MERIT!!
WHAT A WASTE OF TIME JUST TO BE DISCREDITED..
You are exposed and done Andy.. give it up.
Your position and comments HAVE NO MERIT!!
I challenge "Andy" to stand up like a man and PERSONALLY support his diatribes.. until then it's all so much vet bashing and I won't stand for it.
~Dave
SUPPORT THIS BILL! SUPPORT ALL VETS!!
AndyJohnson
(logged-in user) January 4, 2010, 1:20am (report abuse)StefaniesDad says:
"Andy - Other then uncovering you, I don;t even have a dog in this fight"
Folks, that tells me his only purpose here is to heckle. He knows nothing about the issue and has nothing of value to contribute to the issue'
I challenge StefaniesDad to stand up like a man and debate the issue on its merits. Any coward can resort to personal attacks. It takes a real man to confront the issue.
The first reaction to truth is animosity and animosity only breeds malevolence
AndyJohnson
(logged-in user) January 4, 2010, 1:22am (report abuse)StefaniesDad continually persists in the following intellectually-dishonest debate tactics:
Name calling
Changing the subject
Questioning the motives of the opponent
Cult of personality
he is intellectually bankrupt and cannot debate the issue so he attacks the debate opponent
I challenge StefaniesDad to stand up like a man and debate the issue on its merits. Any coward can resort to ad hominem attacks. It takes a real man to confront the issue.
"The first reaction to truth is animosity and animosity only breeds malevolence"
~anonymous
AndyJohnson
(logged-in user) January 4, 2010, 1:23am (report abuse)This Bill, S 1939 has no more merit than H.R. 2254, which has none of its own merit because there is no qualified evidence that dioxin ever left the land mass of Vietnam and/or was ever available in the offshore environment in sufficient quantity to harm units operating there. Despite all the protestations, the IOM has been unable to find any.
This Bill proposes to make a mockery of veterans disability compensation by compensating those that were not disabled by military service. In other words, a handout. Something for nothing.
This Bill, more appropriately, should be called the Veterans Handout Bill.
Every disabled veteran should be outraged that some folks are seeking to use veterans compensation for personal gain.
For those who oppose this bill
January 4, 2010, 1:25am (report abuse)Please contact your legislators and tell them there is NO qualified scientific evidence that bluewater sailors were harmed by herbicides and that there is NO evidence that Agent Orange was used in Thailand or Guam in quantities that necessitate presumption. Insist they examine qualified scientific evidence. Tell them you OPPOSE this bill because the scientific evidence does not support harm to these veterans and that you want them to vote AGAINST it should it ever come to the floor.
StefaniesDad
(logged-in user) January 4, 2010, 7:51am (report abuse)Rather than take up bandwidth here I will wait until the "Johnson" droid actually humanizes his arguments and position, admits he has lied to the followers of this board and is willing to stand up like a man and debate me on the merits of this bill.
I apologize to you all for taking up space here waiting for that to happen - apparently it's not gonna.
So we move on knowing he is exposed for misrepresenting facts and for being the liar he is. We can all take great satisfaction in that fact.
~Dave
SUPPORT THIS BILL!! SUPPORT ALL VETERANS!!
AndyJohnson
(logged-in user) January 4, 2010, 12:17pm (report abuse)StefaniesDad says: "Andy - Other then uncovering you, I don;t even have a dog in this fight"
His only purpose here is to stir the pot and heckle.
StefaniesDad continually persists in the following intellectually-dishonest debate tactics:
Name calling:
Changing the subject:
Questioning the motives of the opponent:
Citing irrelevant facts or logic:
Cult of personality:
Rejecting facts or logic as opinion:
Strawman:
Intimidation:
he is intellectually bankrupt and cannot debate the issue so he attacks the debate opponent and makes his participation conditioed on irrelevant issues. He ought to apologize.
I challenge StefaniesDad to stand up like a man and debate the issue on its merits without any conditions. Any coward can resort to ad hominem attacks. It takes a real man to confront the issue.
"The first reaction to truth is animosity and animosity only breeds malevolence"
~anonymous
For those who oppose this bill
January 4, 2010, 12:18pm (report abuse)Please contact your legislators and tell them there is NO qualified scientific evidence that bluewater sailors were harmed by herbicides and that there is NO evidence that Agent Orange was used in Thailand or Guam in quantities that necessitate presumption. Insist they examine qualified scientific evidence. Tell them you OPPOSE this bill because the scientific evidence does not support harm to these veterans and that you want them to vote AGAINST it should it ever come to the floor.
StefaniesDad
(logged-in user) January 4, 2010, 4:39pm (report abuse)Why do these sound so familiar..?
Name calling: "he is intellectually bankrupt"
Changing the subject: "His only purpose here is to stir the pot and heckle."
Questioning the motives of the opponent: "he attacks the debate opponent and makes his participation conditioed on irrelevant issues"
Citing irrelevant facts or logic: "The first reaction to truth is animosity and animosity only breeds malevolence"
Cult of personality:Any coward can resort to ad hominem attacks. It takes a real man to confront the issue.
Rejecting facts or logic as opinion: "I challenge StefaniesDad to stand up like a man and debate the issue on its merits without any conditions."
Strawman: Posting as "..." or "for those who oppose"
Intimidation: "I challenge StefaniesDad to stand up like a man and debate the issue on its merits without any conditions."
'nuff said.. Andy just described himself.. whatajerk! ::roflmfao::
SUPPORT THIS BILL!! SUPPORT ALL VETERANS!!
~Dave
AndyJohnson
(logged-in user) January 4, 2010, 4:50pm (report abuse)StefaniesDad says: "Andy - Other then uncovering you, I don;t even have a dog in this fight"
His only purpose here is to stir the pot and heckle.
StefaniesDad continually persists in the following intellectually-dishonest debate tactics:
Name calling:
Changing the subject:
Questioning the motives of the opponent:
Citing irrelevant facts or logic:
Cult of personality:
Rejecting facts or logic as opinion:
Strawman:
Intimidation:
he is intellectually bankrupt and cannot debate the issue so he attacks the debate opponent and makes his participation conditioed on irrelevant issues. He ought to apologize.
I challenge StefaniesDad to stand up like a man and debate the issue on its merits without any conditions. Any coward can resort to ad hominem attacks. It takes a real man to confront the issue.
"The first reaction to truth is animosity and animosity only breeds malevolence"
~anonymous