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H.R. 646, The Federal Acupuncture Coverage Act of 2009 (298 comments ↓ | 3 wiki edits: view article ↓)

  • This item is from the 111th Congress (2009-2010) and is no longer current. Comments, voting, and wiki editing have been disabled, and the cost/savings estimate has been frozen.

H.R. 646 would amend title XVIII of the Social Security Act to provide for coverage of qualified acupuncturist services under part B of the Medicare Program, and to amend title 5, United States Code, to provide for coverage of such services under the Federal Employees Health Benefits Program.

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Richard Schwartz

February 4, 2009, 8:55am (report abuse)

The taxpayers should cover only modalities of treatment that are demonstrated to be effective. This probably rules out homeopathy, accupuncture, and shamanism.

Dr. Harvey Kaltsas

February 16, 2009, 7:55pm (report abuse)

The taxpayers paid for the National Institutes of Health (NIH)to examine what modalities work. The NIH ruled in 1997 that acupuncture works well for many ailments and should be included in national health care insurance plans. There are numerous studies which support how dramatically cost-effective acupuncture is. You can read them at www.aaaomonline.org

Dr. Claudette Baker

February 16, 2009, 10:58pm (report abuse)

It is time for the citizens of this country, including employees of the US Government to be able to avail themselves to Oriental Medicine, which is safe, effective and extremely reasonably-priced. Acupuncture has been proven hundreds of times by credible research to be effective, safe and cost effective. The US Treasury saves money, the many people who have not been helped by other forms of treatment will benefit and bottom line, acupuncture doesn't hurt people. Compare that to the millions who are harmed and killed by pharmaceutical drugs and surgeries. Do the numbers. It's time to give us a real choice.

Rebekah Christensen

February 17, 2009, 1:30am (report abuse)

Presently there are nearly 26,000 licensed acupuncture practitioners in 42 states and the District of Columbia. Acupuncture offers a minimally invasive option for many conditions, including chronic. It has little to no negative interaction with concurrent prescription drugs and no serious side effects. It can simultaneously alleviate symptoms while decreasing the need for prescription drugs, thus reducing costly hospital stays. Society must be afforded the right to access AOM equal to other healthcare modalities. I strongly support HR 646.

Carol Braverman

February 17, 2009, 8:05am (report abuse)

There have been over 500 clinical trials, measuring the efficacy of acupuncture, conducted in the past three decades, and there are 50 systematic reviews of acupuncture in the Cochrane databases.

A majority of these studies seek to determine which biologic mechanisms acupuncture effects changes in, and the conclusions in these studies overall have been favorable, and advocate the use of acupuncture in a clinical setting as an adjunctive treatment with conventional therapies, where

suitable.

So, this coherent system of medicine, put it to the test by western science has passed the test of "does it work," and research now focuses on protocols to find the most efficient way of using it.

Further, acupuncture:

* can reduce the need for prescription drugs

* treat intractable symptoms such as headache or pain syndromes

* be an adjunctive therapy to western treatment

* reduce stress, anxiety, and on their own and/or when associated with the primary issue

patricia

February 17, 2009, 8:23am (report abuse)

acupuncture is great, it works and often is very cost effective.

janet jensen

February 17, 2009, 11:52am (report abuse)

Acupuncture is an effective way to reduce medical costs.

John Roberts

February 17, 2009, 4:13pm (report abuse)

Chairman Mao would have eliminated acupuncture as anti-revolutionary, but the communists kept it alive since it is cheap and effective and safe. What more could you ask for?

Tom Hurrle

February 17, 2009, 5:12pm (report abuse)

Acupuncture & Oriental Medicine are safe and effective for many conditions. It would be a service to the country to expand its use.

With regard to demonstrations of efficacy, the number of drugs that have been promoted as "standard of care," then withdrawn in a few years because of harmful effects points out the inadequacy of biomedicine's standard of "proven safe and effective."

Heather Vandeburg LAc MSOM

February 17, 2009, 11:12pm (report abuse)

Prestigious medical institutions like Mayo Clinic and The Cleveland Clinic recognize acupuncture as a valid and effective treatment for aliments. The Cleveland Clinic has acupuncturist on staff. There have been numerous clinical studies siteing the benefits of Acupuncture. It is time that this effective treatment be offered to the portion of our nation that needs it the most, the elderly. Most elderly are on fixed incomes. Medicare is the only way they could afford treatments. An acupuncture session is hundreds of dollars less than a cortisone shot. It can be just as effective at relieving pain. There are no drug interactions with acupuncture. It is very safe and very effective.

David Jones

February 20, 2009, 10:51am (report abuse)

Have we not all heard the study which revealed that up to 80 % of all medical procedures are of unproven value? So why do some hold Acupuncture and TCM to a higher standard. Most states now have licensure requirements and medical boards supervising it, so is it not time to provide the public with greater access?

Laura C- Chicago, IL

March 5, 2009, 4:28pm (report abuse)

I think it will be great for people with medicare to be able to get acupunture treatments that will be covered by their insurance. Most of these people don't have the fincances or they are older and they need help without medication ,and acupuncture could help them a lot.

Domenic Thomas, L.Ac.

March 6, 2009, 10:18am (report abuse)

Acupuncture is a safe and effective medical modality which could benefit millions of Americans at a very limited cost. At a time in which every dollar counts, acupuncture could help reduce health care costs, while improving the quality of life for many Americans.

Marleeta Jones Burns

March 7, 2009, 11:02am (report abuse)

I believe all insurance companies should be compelled to participate with all plenary-licensed persons holding an approved scope of practice in each state as dictated by law and overseen by it\'s medical board. Withholding medical coverage for these services would appear to be clear discrimination by its purest definition. This is not a case of denial for some services deemed unnecessary or unsafe.It is ALL services performed by only some practitioners. If approval means freedom to do what you have been trained to do and our medical boards approve those services how can insurance entities deny payment for such services? This appears to be discrimination on the part of carriers without cause and a barrier to free choice of provider by Americans who are forced to pay out of pocket for what are less invasive,less expensive services. HR 646 resolves this clear discrimination practice. Please ask yourselves if the discrimination interference for profit sake, not best practice?

Toni Hoelting, L.Ac

March 7, 2009, 12:43pm (report abuse)

The effectiveness of acupuncture is beneficial to everyone. Our senior citizens who have a cap on their monthly income, are seeking better care than the band-aid treatment they are given with their numerous medications and doctors visits. They want acupuncture and need acupuncture, but the out of pocket expense is prohibiting them from having a quality of life they so desire. They are constantly telling me they are tired of taking all their medications and want something more natural.

I want my senior citizens and all senior citizens who are on medicare to have a choice in their quality of care. They are tired of being sick, and in pain, and they deserve to have a choice as to how they want to be treated. Give them the choice. Give them the freedom to choose!

Mitchell Harris

March 7, 2009, 1:17pm (report abuse)

Acupuncture has been proven in scientifically in hundreds of studies and lump it into a generalized category of alternative treatment. The NIH concluded in 1997 "One of the advantages of acupuncture is that the incidence of adverse effects is substantially lower than that of many drugs or other accepted procedures for the same condition". Acupuncture has been shown to reduce cortisol levels systemically, safely lowering inflammation in the body, releasing natural (addiction free) pain killing chemicals in the body, and regulating the autonomic nervous system, which is connected to healing. Acupuncture is not a panacea but has an important role in helping the US keep health costs down, avoiding unnecessary or unproven surgical techniques and a lifetime of expensive medication. Acupuncture safely and effectively fills a huge gap in care which can be treated preventively before it becomes an emergency or which is not treated effectively with current techniques.

Dr Margaux Gold, D.O.M.

March 8, 2009, 3:07pm (report abuse)

I support the passing of H.R. 646. Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine offers something that is not addressed by Medicare: preventative, safe, effective, results-centered and drugless medicine. The savings of medicare dollars spent on wasted obligatory follow visits, drugs that suppress healing and negatively interact with other medications, unnecessary surgery, and mortality will prove itself cost effective in the very first year of its passing and implementation. I do pain resolution, not pain management! Give the people what they want and what they need. Pass H.R. 646.

John Patton, M.A.

March 9, 2009, 8:43am (report abuse)

acupuncture works! Thousands of people are being helped with pain management, digestive problems, migraine headache, menstral symptoms, the list of benefits goes on and on. Many members in congress have expierenced these benifits. Everyone should have access to the cost effective health care.

Christopher Allen

March 10, 2009, 3:31pm (report abuse)

My Blue Cross Blue Shield covers it. Obviously, the discussion is over and legislation appears to continue its long tradition of catching up to what the rest of already know.

Valerie Hobbs

March 13, 2009, 2:00pm (report abuse)

Aside from the proven efficacy and cost effectiveness of acupuncture, it\'s time to bring acupuncture services to people who may not be able to afford out of pocket payment for services. This includes the majority of Americans who can only seek health care that is included in insurance, not just people who qualify for Medicare. Additionally patients have a right to access care by the most highly trained licensed professional that offers that care, the acupuncturist.

Kevin Rieu, L. Ac.

March 19, 2009, 7:48pm (report abuse)

Asian Medicine has been highly effective to treat various illnesses for thousands of years. It is cost effective, and highly effective medicine with nearly no side effects. The government will save tens of millions of dollars if they adapt Acupuncture included in Medicare. People will depend less on costly medications, and actually will improve most of their prognosis.

Dr. Joe C. Chang, MAOM, Dipl. O.M., L.Ac

March 22, 2009, 5:20pm (report abuse)

Currently, our troops are returning home from the War On Terror with PTSD and TBI. According to the RAND study, over 2 billion dollars can be saved through evidence-based research. So far, the Pentagon has funded $5 million dollars in research on acupuncture, yoga, and animal therapy for PTSD and depression. There has been significant primary and secondary outcomes on acupuncture studies for PTSD.

[information removed at request of commenter]

Joe C. Chang, MAOM, Dipl. O.M., L.Ac

[information removed at request of commenter]

Catherine Ly

March 24, 2009, 6:33pm (report abuse)

I do want the Medicare can pay for Acupuncture treatment.

Rauchelle

April 2, 2009, 11:50am (report abuse)

As an Acupuncturist in a county hospital, 100% of my patients ask me on a daily basis, why is Acupuncture not covered by Health Insurance? And I honestly do not have a great answer for them. There have been many clinical studies showing the benefits of Acupuncture. I feel that it is time that this effective therapy be offered to the portion of our nation that needs it the most, the elderly. Most elderly are on fixed incomes, and who, from my experience benefit the most from Acupuncture. Medicare is the only way they could afford treatments. I have had a majority of the elderly population tell me that they cannot afford to come and see me (and I do not charge that much considering the location that I am in) and it is to bad that Medicare does not cover such treatments. An acupuncture session is hundreds of dollars less than cortisone shots and thousands of dollars less than surgery and can be just as effective at relieving pain and no drug interactions with acupuncture.

John P Urich

April 15, 2009, 7:11am (report abuse)

Acupuncture is a highly efeective and scientific way to treat a wwide variety of problems including most acute and chronic pain, internal disorders such as digestive problems, asthma, vertigo, moderate hypertension, to name only a few. I have been practicing 25 years and my reports from my patients are excellent. And remember, we help and cure patients many times after western physicians have had a year or so with them.

Martin K

April 26, 2009, 4:55pm (report abuse)

I don't care if Acupuncture cures cancer! Why am I paying for your treatments? We already have socialized medicine in this country, just not all of us benefit. Heck, none of us benefit! Medicare only drives prices up. We'd have better healthcare for a better price if we got rid of these federal health programs.

Steve Compton, L.Ac, MaOM

April 28, 2009, 5:50pm (report abuse)

Anyone who lumps acupuncture in with shamanism and homeopathy simply hasn't been reading the scientific research which consistently show acupuncture's efficacy for a variety of illnesses.

Jean Giblette

April 28, 2009, 6:49pm (report abuse)

The problem with our health care system is not so much who pays for it as the fact that it's too damned expensive. I've been using licensed Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine (A&OM) practitioners as my primary care providers since 1995 and have received uniformly EXCELLENT treatment at very low cost. There's no way the health care system can swallow the bulge in the python--the aging Boomers like me--without A&OM's economical efficacy. Let's get this bill passed as a first step in the right direction.

Jason Bussell

April 30, 2009, 6:00pm (report abuse)

Acupuncture and Chinese Medicinal herbs can save this country billions and should be funded. But it is important that these tools are in the right hands. MD's and Chiropractors are not sufficiently trained in acupuncture. This bill should have a provision that the acupuncture be performed by a Licensed Acupuncturist (L.Ac). The education required to become an L.Ac is four years, nearly 3000 hours, and awards a Master's degree. Other professions are sometimes allowed to perform acupuncture with a few hundred hours training or less.

Kara Leskie

May 6, 2009, 3:34pm (report abuse)

Acupuncture should be covered as it is easily as effective as many of the medications on the market for symptomatic relief. What's more is it often helps to get to the cause of the issue and bring about healing, not just masking symptoms. I do agree however, that Acupuncture should be left to a Licensed Acupuncturist that has completed a Master's degree program approved by the Accreditation Commission for Acupuncture & Oriental Medicine (ACAOM). Oriental Medicine is an entire medical system that can not truly be understood with only a few hundred hours of traning.

Marc m

May 6, 2009, 8:51pm (report abuse)

I think medical marijuana should be covered as well. It's pretty darned expensive.

Elizabeth Stephenson

May 7, 2009, 5:20pm (report abuse)

I'm sold on Acupuncture. It's worked for me... I pay out of pocket for it because I PREFER it to the traditional drugs/surgery system.... I believe if more people tried it, they would realize that Acupuncture is an excellent way to stimulate the body to heal itself in a natural way. (To me, this is preferable to creating stronger & stronger synthetic drugs that destroy the body's natural immunity.)

Bodhi Short

May 8, 2009, 9:44pm (report abuse)

I have always turned to Oriental Medicine, particularly accupunture before any form of western medicine and have found it to be extremely effective. With the exception of common pain killers, I have not visited a western doctor since breaking my arm in second grade. Any ailments I've had since have been successfully and often easly cured by Oriental Medicine.

Sarah Piestrup

May 9, 2009, 11:38am (report abuse)

I have personally helped many of my patients to reduce or eliminate the immediate need for tens of thousands of dollars in surgery and prescription medications in my short time in practice. This is not cost effective medicine it is cost eliminating medicine. Over time this 5,000 year old system of medicine can prevent future costs of healthcare exponentially.

Dr Rolph Snuffy

May 11, 2009, 2:00pm (report abuse)

In a world full of dirty needles, I doubt we can afford to subsudize an industry that promotes their usage as a way to fight the deseases they are spreading. We should be helping these people kick their bad habbits, not putting more needles into them.

S Karppinen

May 12, 2009, 9:44am (report abuse)

Acupuncture is more cost effective and certainly may be safer than many traditional medicine options. I say allow us all options.

C Hallstrom

May 12, 2009, 8:13pm (report abuse)

Please directly quote more than one(or even one would be nice) double blind peer reviewed clinical trial showing the efficacy of acupuncture beyond the placebo effect. Superstition is not medicine and I refuse to pay for it. Should we pay for other faith healers too? How about voodoo? It has a long history as well, or perhaps santeria? "Alternative medicine" is neither. Evidence based medicine is the only reasonable position for any rational person. And it is NOT cheap. 3xweek @$30-$100+ is not cheap. All that money could support real science and real medicine. Just so we"re clear, there is no such thing as "alternative science" correct?

And finally, yes I have actually experienced acupuncture and many other "alternative" modalities. Yes I am a sucker too.

Elisabete Alves-de-Souza, DAOM

May 13, 2009, 2:02pm (report abuse)

This is the right momento to increase health and decrease cost. Acupuncture is part of the solution because is safe, effective, and a preventive medical model that has proven to increase health and wellness and decrease cost. Acupuncture increase health not disease.

I vote positive for this Bill.

J. B.

May 15, 2009, 9:57am (report abuse)

C Hallstrom,

Your baseless claims reveal a high amount of ignorance on this topic.

If you're going to make an argument, then have a working knowledge of the subject that you are discussing. Repeating a talking point is no equivalent for studying the research yourself.

A joint MIT-Harvard study ruled out the placebo effect (http://tinyurl.com/p3on23).

Here's some other studies for you:

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/114/5/1242

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19224815?ordinalpos=2&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

(Laser Acupuncure) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18022318?ordinalpos=14&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

(acupressure) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17645494?ordinalpos=23&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

J.B.

May 15, 2009, 10:19am (report abuse)

EDIT:

here are the same urls, just shortened (since the originals were cut off).

http://tinyurl.com/pgh3qp

http://tinyurl.com/pptde6

http://tinyurl.com/qv2mvw (laser acupuncture)

http://tinyurl.com/qpt9ym (acupressure)

Here's more:

http://tinyurl.com/pgumd6

http://tinyurl.com/qolfh9

http://tinyurl.com/pnxvp8

http://tinyurl.com/qq55e4

There's plenty more where those came from if you take the time to research for yourself.

C Hallstrom

May 16, 2009, 3:19pm (report abuse)

Re:JB

First all your links are broken. Second you’re simply wrong. I mean look at your sources, do you think they might have a vested interest in a positive outcome? I have provided links to a number of actual peer reviewed double blind clinical trials. My last link directly debunks your source material. Meta analysis is controversial and does not constitute definitive proof of any kind. To any other reader please do your own research and if you do it honestly I believe you will reach the same conclusion I did. Truly, others express this much more eloquently and definitively than I. I encourage you to seek them out, you know actual scientists and scientific journals. Due to space I will post links separately.

C Hallstrom

May 16, 2009, 3:21pm (report abuse)

here are the links

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/02/060206233120.htm

http://rheumatology.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/43/5/662

http://www.csicop.org/si/2003-09/alternative-medicine.html

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/

http://www.cecc.gov/pages/roundtables/052305/Ownby.php

http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/abstract/143/1/10

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/abstract/338/jan27_2/a3115

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/12/yet_another_acupuncture_metaanalysis_gar.php

C Hallstrom

May 16, 2009, 5:01pm (report abuse)

Re: JB

So I made a few of your links work and the only thing I can say is…are you kidding? That is not evidence that is conjecture. Your sources are incomplete and not properly randomized nor are they peer reviewed and they have not been replicated. The control groups alone in some are not big enough to provide sufficient data to support the stated conclusions. Pseudoscience is not science. To belabor the point here are more links , the last of which is quite funny.

http://www.csicop.org/articles/19990226-altmed/

http://junkfoodscience.blogspot.com/2008/09/hearsay-squared-acupuncture-for-breast.html

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/ploys.html

http://www.csicop.org/si/9607/china.html

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/Pharmacology/dc-bits/quack4.html

Misled constituent

May 19, 2009, 6:04pm (report abuse)

This site is lousy as it sounds like this still doesn't get to the legislator!

Mike Rizzo

May 21, 2009, 1:11pm (report abuse)

Hi C Hallstrom, what is your explanation of the Harvard-MIT neuroimaging study? Why did only real acupuncture show different results? It can now conclusively be said that SSRI's and Statins do not work properly. But they are still being prescribed. How is this real medicine? 25 (surgery-related) studies from another doctor have been shown to be faked as of this year. How is this real science? Dr. Scott Reuben was found to have faked the data used in 21 papers published in peer reviewed journals from '96-'08. How is this real medicine and real science? Can you please direct me to a QuackWatch and/or Skeptic site that has talked about these and expressed the same outrage and contempt for quackery as they do in regards to alt med? My point, is I don't see this coming from Skeptics who trumpet modern medicine as science based and evidence based. I mean no offense to you, but where's the skepticism? The neutrality to evidence (or lack of)? Where's the integrity?? Thanks,Mike Rizzo

Mike Rizzo

May 21, 2009, 1:13pm (report abuse)

err, sorry for the sloppy formatting. It wouldn't let me post it any other way even though I did not pass the character limit..

Eric Nagler, LT USN

May 22, 2009, 11:35am (report abuse)

Acupuncture is proven, effective, and will drastically reduce lost work hours, wages, finances, and residual long-term side effects from drugs that would be used in its place. It is effectively used in some military hospitals, mainly in pain clinics, wounded warrior clinics, and cancer treatment. Full integration of complimentary modalities such as acupuncture, chiropractic, massage therapies, energy medicine, should occur. This nation has reveled in its ignorance, and it is now time to investigate and embrace effects and results that are evidently apparent regardless of personal or academic position and posturing.

C Hallstrom

May 23, 2009, 7:24pm (report abuse)

Hey Mike Rizzo, Could you supply a link to the study you reference? And further I am not arguing there is no quackery in mainstrean medicine. I simply wish to see evidence for it all, no faith-based medicine of any kind. A good skeptic is skeptical of everything. If statins and ssri's don't work then by all means let us be rid of them. I am a equal opportunity skeptic I assure you.

And to Nagler of the Navy, opinions are nice but evidence is better.

My second post had an incomplete link. sorry

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/12/yet_another_acupuncture_metaanalysis_gar.php

C Hallstrom

May 23, 2009, 7:26pm (report abuse)

one more try

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/12/

yet_another_acupuncture_metaanalysis_gar.php

please work

Ana Villanueva

May 26, 2009, 1:12pm (report abuse)

I truly support this bill. Acupuncture gives people power over there own health and healing and in the long run will save thousands of dollars in health care. Prevention is where its at.xr

v. wolf

May 27, 2009, 11:01am (report abuse)

If acupuncture has withstood the test of time (thousands of years) and been tested on billions of people over this amount of time...then it MUST have something to offer - it simply could not have survived and been transported to many other countries outside of China if it didn't work.

For those who seek "Scientific" data to support the effectiveness of acupuncture, please keep in mind what scientific truly means. A scientific method of inquiry must be based on gathering observable, empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning. The "reasoning" if based out of Western Cartesian thought, will never be able to assess acupuncture, since what's required is an Asian principle of reasoning. It is like trying to understand the phenomena of thunderstorms using math only - it wouldn't account for the experience/relationship that people have with thunderstorms.

I support this bill - and hope that acupuncture can be offered to anyone who seeks it.

C Hallstrom

May 27, 2009, 12:49pm (report abuse)

Re: vwolf

There is no such thing as "Asian principles of reasoning" in fact that statement approaches being offensive, Asian people do not "reason" differently than Europeans. Second what on earth is "western cartesian thought" and what if any corrupting influence could it have on the scientific method? I cited evidence e-v-i-d-e-n-c-e in case you didn't get it. You cited your experience of a relationship with a thunderstorm. Are you kidding? You want my tax dollars? No way.

p.s. I don't think you should be telling anybody what scientific means since you clearly don't know.

R. Al-Amin

May 27, 2009, 8:32pm (report abuse)

Acupuncture is safe and cost effective. I support this bill, and hope that acupuncture treatments be accessible and affordable for all.

Joanie Stewart

June 2, 2009, 12:01pm (report abuse)

I am asked daily by people would love to have acupuncture WHY it isn't covered by insurance. As a Board Certified Acupuncure Physician,I totally support HR 646 so that more people who want access to alternative health care can have it.

L Dulac, L.Ac

June 3, 2009, 10:20am (report abuse)

Re: C Hallstrom

If there is no evidence, then why does WHO and NIH support acupuncture for the treatment of several ailments?!?!

Lola Fox-Rabinovich, L.Ac,

June 3, 2009, 1:02pm (report abuse)

As an acupuncturist who witnessed firsthand the healing and ease of suffering that acupuncture can provide, I support this bill enthusiastically. let's give everyone a chance to heal!

C Hallstrom

June 3, 2009, 3:16pm (report abuse)

Three acupuncturists reply and not ONE has any avidence.WTF. Oh wait you say the WHO and the NIH support it so there must be evidence. Says who? Show me. Is this the basis for your knowledge? Simply assuming? Good job.Excellent scholarship!Thousands of years and this is all you have? How about we start by covering all people for medicine that actually works before we worry about covering spa treatments. You know medicine that cures real disease, you know the stuff you take when you actually get sick. What were Chinese mortality rates for all those years with this wonderful system of theirs? You won't like the answer but hey, they are only facts, feel free to ignore them for psuedoscience cares not for facts.

What I really don't understand is why so many seemingly rational people have so completely lost their minds.I know many of you went to school and studied and spent thousands of dollars and believe with all your heart that all this is true but none of that makes it true. Sorry.

L Dulac, L.Ac

June 4, 2009, 11:41am (report abuse)

RE: C Hallstrom

I'm so sorry you are an angry person. You need acupuncture!

Here is evidence:

Effectiveness of Acupuncture as Adjunctive Therapy in Osteoarthritis of the Knee: A Randomized, Controlled Trial. Annals of Internal Medicine. 2004; 141(12):901-910.

C Hallstrom

June 4, 2009, 1:35pm (report abuse)

perhaps you should read your own study.

I quote "Many participants dropped out of the study, so readers should interpret the findings at 26 weeks with caution."

Please reference the study showing acupuncture's efficacy for anger otherwise keep your diagnosis to yourself. If you took the time to read my posts and the links provided perhaps you would have a more cogent argument. Perhaps not. I have refuted your referenced study please try and refute mine. An argument unsupported by facts is just opinion and opinions can't have my taxes.

Lisa Dulac, L.Ac

June 4, 2009, 3:58pm (report abuse)

There is no room to refute or to show you the evidence. You will inevitably find a flaw somewhere. You have obviously made up your mind about this medicine. I am no longer going to waste my time. And don't take this as an excuse.....I see evidence everyday in my practice.

C Hallstrom

June 4, 2009, 6:49pm (report abuse)

I had plenty of room to refute you and the reason I find flaws is that they are there. I didn’t create the flaws. Yes I have made up my mind about acupuncture through careful investigation AND personal experience. You however have clearly made up your mind only through personal experience. I shouldn’t have to tell you but I will; personal experience is inherently subjective thus inherently unscientific and unreliable. I am sorry you feel it is a waste of time to prove your profession is not a fraud.1000 words has been plenty of room for my arguments and EVIDENCE why not for you? Finally, it is common in a debate to address the opposition’s assertions; I have addressed and I believe refuted yours why will no one attempt to address mine. Are facts unreasonable? Is this all acupuncture has? Flawed studies and defenders of little intellect? I mean for crying out loud can anyone coherently answer ANY of my arguments? That is without diagnosing my emotions and prescribing treatment?

Laura Dawson, L.Ac.

June 5, 2009, 11:25pm (report abuse)

Having successfully treated a number of patients, there is one that needs to be viewed in support of this legislation. A Patient medically diagnosed via blood test with chronic fatigue syndrome, showed a more than signicant(>1%)reduction of measurable blood serum borne pathogens after weekly acupuncture treatment for 16 weeks. This will impact many men and women suffering from this syndrome with little or no specifice model for treatment using allopathic medicine, allowing them to participate in work, community and family life, with less pain and suffering. Why would we not include this in our Health Reform Plan?

Shelly Krahn, L.Ac

June 8, 2009, 3:32pm (report abuse)

An Acupuncture study was done several years back, and published in a well known scientific magazine, regarding whether acupuncture done on specific sights known in oriental medicine to effect vision, would have any more effect than sham acupuncture when viewing the brain via dopler. The sham acupuncture effected different areas of the brain, but non specific to occular centers of the brain, whereas the acupuncture using critical vision acu-points showed direct effect in the occular areas of the brain specifically. This shows that there is a measurable difference, and not placebo, where acupuncture has obvious effects over the sham points. Acupuncture also was originally endorsed by former president Nixon, after seeing the miraculous effects of acupuncture in post-stroke patients. There are also studies done on acupuncture's effectiveness on increasing blood circulation to the uterus in reproductive medicine studies, to further the success of invitro fertilization. Evidence is there.

Bertram Furman

June 8, 2009, 7:52pm (report abuse)

Acupuncture is a proven method for reducing pain. Many elder people on medicare could benefit. we are currently in a RFP for a VA contract. Passage of this measure would most certainly help Veterans also.

C Hallstrom

June 8, 2009, 8:03pm (report abuse)

First is anyone whose paycheck isn't involved in this vote going to comment? I mean do ya think you all might be somewhat biased? Second, Laura one patient is meaningless and what on earth does greater than 1% mean? Doesn't sound like much especially for 16 weeks. Third, Shelly, how well known can the magazine be if you can't remember it? And finally, Nixon? Are you kidding? You know he was a politician right? Not a doctor or a scientist or any kind of authority in these matters. Not to mention he was a liar and a crook. So once again I ask you, can anyone quote ANY properly conducted study showing anything more than a placebo effect for acupuncture? Anybody?

P.s. just saying you've seen a study somewhere doesn't count.

Marcella Robinson LAc, AP, DoA, LMT

June 9, 2009, 8:13am (report abuse)

As an Acupuncturist that work both on people directly effected by 9/11 and Katrina and knowing the relief that the treatments brought these individuals. Now seeing first hand how the US Military has adopted many of these protocols into front line combat. Can we continue to say no to HR646. Acupuncture has taken its place in the US history books. Allow it to take its place as an affordable medical modality offered to the people of the United States it is time.

L Dulac, L.Ac

June 9, 2009, 2:33pm (report abuse)

bmj.com

Acupuncture for chronic headache in primary care: large, pragmatic, randomised trial

Claire M Smith, Nadia Ellis, Peter Fisher and Robbert Van Haselen

Andrew J Vickers, Rebecca W Rees, Catherine E Zollman, Rob McCarney,

L Dulac, L.Ac

June 9, 2009, 2:43pm (report abuse)

Traditional Chinese Acupuncture and Placebo (Sham) Acupuncture Are Differentiated by Their Effects on mu-Opioid Receptors (MORs).

Harris RE, Zubieta JK, Scott DJ, Napadow V, Gracely RH, Clauw DJ.

Department of Anesthesiology, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor Michigan 48109, USA.

www.pubmed.com

L Dulac, L.Ac

June 9, 2009, 2:53pm (report abuse)

Electroacupuncture relieves pain in men with chronic prostatitis/chronic pelvic pain syndrome: three-arm randomized trial.

Urology. 2009 May;73(5):1036-41

www.Pubmed.com

L Dulac. L.Ac

June 9, 2009, 2:57pm (report abuse)

Manheimer E, Zhang G, Udoff L, et al. Effect of acupuncture on rates of pregnancy and live birth among women undergoing in vitro fertilization: systematic review and meta-analysis. British Medical Journal. Published online February 2008.

L Dulac L.Ac

June 9, 2009, 3:00pm (report abuse)

Acupuncture Relieves Pain and Improves Function in Knee Osteoarthritis

December 21, 2004, issue of the Annals of Internal Medicine.1

L Dulac, L.Ac

June 9, 2009, 3:03pm (report abuse)

Dougherty DD, Kong J, Webb M, et al. 2008. A combined [11C]diprenorphine PET study and fMRI study of acupuncture analgesia. Behavioural Brain Research. Nov. 2008;193(1):63–68.

C Hallstrom

June 9, 2009, 10:15pm (report abuse)

Please reference the actual studies not simply the summary. You might have noticed I linked to the studies themselves not just their summaries. This is because I am not afraid to do my research. Since you have not done yours I cannot be bothered to refute you. Please provide links to the studies not their one paragraph summaries. I will be happy to prove you are wrong when you do so. Can you prove my evidence is flawed? Do you have a problem with my scholarship? Because I have a problem with yours. Just to be crystal clear, I am not arguing that sticking needles in a person has no effect just that so called

traditional Chinese medicine has no explanation for the phenomena. This thread is supposed to be about the use of our taxes. So I ask you which would you rather have antibiotics or acupuncture? Those who choose acupuncture should pay up with the undertaker.

L Dulac, L.Ac

June 10, 2009, 10:29am (report abuse)

You asked for evidence, I gave you some. Chinese Medicine is not Western medicine and so does not explain the phemomena is western terms. Sure CM has an explanation, it's just not in the language that you may understand. It is not linear, black and white, and that is why I think you are having a hard time with it. I actually have a very scientific mind and need evidence as well. As I went through school, I learned a different way to think about the body.

C Hallstrom

June 10, 2009, 1:24pm (report abuse)

A paragraph is not evidence and science is not "western". Does gravity work differently in Asia? How about thermodynamics? You say "CM" has an "explanation" just not one that makes any sense to an 'untrained' mind like mine."A language I might not understand", that is true, I do not speak or read Chinese, do you? Is "non linear" and "not black and white" your way of saying you have no real proof? Did your "scientific mind" take some time off? TCM is NOT science. It has no basis in facts of any kind. Please explain the interaction between Mao and the communists and "TCM" in the 1950's. Do you even know what I'm talking about? If you bothered to read my evidence you would. I read your evidence have you read mine? How about those mortality rates I asked about? Did you know there has never been a negative result in a Chinese(in China) acupuncture study? Why is that? My mind screams BIAS what does your "scientific mind"say? Science requires proof not belief.

C Hallstrom

June 10, 2009, 1:38pm (report abuse)

You really should actually read your own studies before you post them.I mean it is your very first study and I Quote;

"Control patients did not receive a sham acupuncture intervention...

Patients in the trial were not blinded and may therefore have

given biased assessments of their headache scores".

Wanna bet I find similar problems with your other "evidence"?

L Dulac, L.Ac

June 10, 2009, 2:46pm (report abuse)

It isn't about choosing acupuncture or antibiotics. It's allowing the availability of acup. to others who otherwise can not afford it. I did read your info, although not all.....and it's a lot of opinions, not proof or evidence that acupuncture does not work. There is no evidence that acupuncture is not a viable, effective treatment. So, yes, you have been refuted. If you want the full text of each of those articles then get them yourself. They are abstracts of a scientific article, not just a paragraph. What is your background? Are you a doctor? I went to an accredited college and recieved my masters degree and yes, I took board exams. I studied for 3 years and also went to China. In China, their hospitals are BOTH western medicine and chinese medicine because BOTH work....and work well together for that matter.

C Hallstrom

June 10, 2009, 3:45pm (report abuse)

Nice try, I am not a doctor and I in no way make money on any side of this issue. There is no evidence that acupuncture IS a viable effective treatment. There you have been refuted too.That was fun.I love just saying stuff its neat.

Just for more fun here's another link; http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/08-10-08

Yes the author is a Medical Doctor.Like I said in my earlier posts others argue this better than I do. However I did NOT simply offer opinions, I offered evidence in the form of clinical trials which apparently you could not be bothered to read. But as I said in my last post it seems you didn't bother to read your own cited studies since they support my argument not yours. I went to an accredited college too though what that has to do with anything is not clear to me. 3 years study wow that's a lot.

I don't care what your resume is, I care what your evidence is or is not. Do you simply ignore evidence you don't like?

C Hallstrom

June 10, 2009, 7:58pm (report abuse)

Here is more evidence you won't like. No opinions just clinical trials.

http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/abstract/143/1/10

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/abstract/338/jan27_2/a3115

http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/167/17/1892?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=acupuncture&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&resourcetype=HWCIT

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2007-09/eecc-adn092607.php

Please show me how these studies are flawed. If not what do you make of their results?

Matt

June 11, 2009, 12:22pm (report abuse)

Aliment Pharmacol Ther. 2008 Aug 15;28(4):497-8; author reply 498-9.

Clinical trial: acupuncture vs. doubling the proton pump inhibitor dose in refractory heartburn.Dickman R, Schiff E, Holland A, Wright C, Sarela SR, Han B, Fass R.

The Neuroenteric Clinical Research Group, Section of Gastroenterology, Southern Arizona VA Health Care System and University of Arizona Health Sciences Center, Tucson, AZ, USA.

BACKGROUND: The current standard of care in proton pump inhibitor failure is to double the proton pump inhibitor dose, despite limited therapeutic gain. Aims To determine the efficacy of adding acupuncture vs. doubling the proton pump inhibitor dose in gastro-oesophageal reflux disease patients who failed symptomatically on proton pump inhibitors once daily.

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