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H.R. 2998, The American Clean Energy and Security Act of 2009 (92 comments ↓ | 4 wiki edits: view article ↓)

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H.R. 2998 would create clean energy jobs, achieve energy independence, reduce global warming pollution and transition to a clean energy economy.

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Visitor Comments Comments Feed for This Bill

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Jeff

June 24, 2009, 10:25pm (report abuse)

Well intentioned but disasterous to low income families, middle income families, small businesses, large businesses, corporations. Other than poele with enough money that the increase costs across the entire ecomony wouldn't effect, or "green" corporations to stand to profit from the sacrifices, and costs of all other mentioned above there isn't a single thing that will truly make the positve change hoped for.

Janet Contreras

June 26, 2009, 1:35am (report abuse)

This cap and trade bill hitting the house vote tomorrow is the biggest tax increase that will hit in our generation and will give government more power over our lives than any other time in America's history. I did feel powerless before I knew how many of us there are out there who felt the same way. Our numbers are huge. Have you signed the petition? http://www.thepetitionsite.com/8/an-open-letter-to-our-nations-leadership with 130,255 others so far? Have you contacted your representatives in Congress and told them NO! on HR2929, now reduced to 1200 pages from the HR2454 over 2,000 pages? They cannot and will not possible read it. Please do it now. We will spend the next ten years repealing and amending the crap that has been done to us in the last six months, but we have to take our government back.

TheLuke

June 26, 2009, 11:18am (report abuse)

Don't you people get it. Within the next decade, if we don't put an end to pollution people will start DYING. If not you, then your children. I've only read a few hundred pages of 2998 so far but it might just be the bill to save us all.

TheLuke

June 26, 2009, 11:20am (report abuse)

P.S. Is money really all that important when you can't breathe because the air is so polluted, there are not clean sources of water left, or there's no food to eat because of an immense climate shift. Money doesn't make anyone happy. Clean air, water, and good food does.

ISpy

June 26, 2009, 12:44pm (report abuse)

Hey Luke, do you have any support that we are all going to die in 10 years w/out this legislation? Your statements have no logic whatsoever. Stop drinking the koolaide and realize that this legislation will put even more strain on the American wallets. Think of the people who could die b/c they can't afford to pay for A/C, due to energy hikes this bill WILL cause.

Gary

June 26, 2009, 12:47pm (report abuse)

To "TheLuke" - so you actually believe all the "Global Warming" crap???? Do some real research!! #1 The Cap and Trade bill is based on Carbon, or CO2 - Carbon Dioxide, you know what we breathe out, and trees live on. It's a Hoax that's been perpetrated by the Liberals. Specifically designed to take money from the U.S Citizens and line the pockets of our Government. Read the real Science - If we do everything that's in that Bill - We "might" alter the temerature of the Earth by 1/10th of one degree in 20 years. It's simply B.S. - We need to be ever mindful of our Ecology, nut not this way.

Patrick

June 26, 2009, 1:07pm (report abuse)

Luke,

I would rather die that live under this anti-American tyranny. Global warming is caused by increaded solar output. You haven't heard much about that through the centrally controlled mass media have you? Hmmm, could the same interest that want this legislation to pass also own most of the media? Hmmm, will destroying what is left of the US with this leglisatoin help them profit? This is communism which is the goal of the monoply capitalists. It's all the same centralized command economy, and micromanaging of our lives by control freaks.

cheryl216

(logged-in user) June 26, 2009, 9:11pm (report abuse)

Here's the main point as far as I am concerned. 50+ pages was added to this bill at 3:00 a m (sound like the last 8 years tactics????). They are pushing the bill through too quickly. The report from the CBO is not updated. Even the representives in the House admit they really don't know the details of the bill, so how can you? Write them and tell them to hold off, let the amierican people and Congress see what is in the bill now and give us time to write to our representatives.

ZMWill

June 27, 2009, 1:30pm (report abuse)

Hey everyone Luke's gotta point! We HAVE to start taking action now to save ALL humanity. We should start with cutting emissions and air pollutants that block out the sun's heat. Next we should devise a plan to cover the Polar Ice caps with black ashes to help attract and retain heat to help melt and warm them! Other wise global cooling will continue to spiral out of control and the next pending ice age will wipe us all out! April 28, 1975 an article in Newsweek magazine.[22] Titled "The Cooling World", points to the "ominous signs that the Earth's weather patterns have begun to change" and points to "a drop of half a degree [Fahrenheit] in average ground temperatures in the Northern Hemisphere between 1945 and 1968." This article shows "The evidence in support of these predictions of global cooling has now begun to accumulate so massively that meteorologists are hard-pressed to keep up with it." So it clear Luke is right Global Cooling will kill us ALL!!!!!!!

LisaSage

(logged-in user) June 28, 2009, 3:08pm (report abuse)

Holy sh*t! What's with the duplicate bills? This is exactly the same as HR 2454 which was passed by the House on Friday.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/vote.xpd?vote=h2009-477

Don't American's have enough to deal with? So we have to trounce the same power-grabbing fascist bills twice?

Bible linda

June 29, 2009, 3:41pm (report abuse)

Hey,the only way to save humanity is to put out Trust in the ONLY Savior Jesus Christ. Wake up people the government cannot save you! The enviroment is fine-we are putiing the cart before the horse.

Bob-47

June 30, 2009, 3:09pm (report abuse)

LisaSage these people are not Fascist, that was the old mean Democrats. These poeple are these people are Socialists, the new power-grabbing folks.

TheLuke

July 1, 2009, 5:54pm (report abuse)

Everyone here seems to care more about what's in their wallets than about their quality of life and that of the others around us (how stereotypically GOP). Yes we breathe out CO2 and plants breathe it in, but there is a limit to the amount of CO2 that can be extracted from the air, especially when we are cutting down our forests. I'm not sure any of you actually understand what greenhouse gases do. They don't block out the sun, they trap the heat in. I'm not sure if any of you have been observing what has been happening over the past few years. Every day the weather stations report air quality as bad. Asthma cases are increasing. There is drought around the world. Severity of tropical storms is increasing. The polar ice caps are obviously shrinking. I could go on listing all the species that are going extinct because of climate/habitat changes, but I am running out of my 1k characters.

TheLuke

July 1, 2009, 5:58pm (report abuse)

Wait I have an idea, maybe we could take some of the >60% of tax money that is going to the military and do some good with that. Fix our environment, help the needy, provide healthcare.

Also 2998 is not the same bill as 2454. It is an amendment striking and replacing 2454. IMHO it is much better because it doesn't damage the Clean Air Act, places stricter restrictions on dirty energy, and makes a harder push for clean energy. How many of you (readers of this post are opposed). What's this? All of you? I think I'm developing psychic powers.

TheLuke

July 1, 2009, 6:05pm (report abuse)

You want proof that we're destroying the environment and we will start dying:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6108414.stm

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/03/drought-around-world-atlanta-perspective.php

http://www.nrdc.org/health/effects/fasthma.asp

That should be enough for now. I'm going to go hug a tree.

Reverend Josh Taylor

July 3, 2009, 2:42am (report abuse)

Repent, people!!!

This bill is communism and it's going to send you to eternal hellfire.

AJD

July 3, 2009, 3:21pm (report abuse)

Some of you folks are scary!! First, HR 2998 and HR 2454 are one and the same, the bill number was updated to 2998 and passed the house last week.

If you believe this bill is going to save the world, think again! China and India have said they will have nothing to do with it and we can not do it alone. AND if you believe we are causing global warming. well you and your buddy Mr. Gore need to fly your jet off to the moon.

What's with section 788 of this bill??? Has anyone ever seen a bill passed with a section reserved for FUTURE BILLS? A SECTION LEFT BLANK SO ANYTHING CAN BE ADDED LATER??? WTF??

AND...it was not 50 pages added at 3:00am it was 300 and in those 300 pgs was a section that requires homeowners to have a EPA home inspection done BEFORE they can list their home for sale. That is to include, but not limited to, appliances, windows, insulation, heating & a/c etc. If your home does not meet EPA STANDARDS you, the home owner, must repair/replace prior to LISTING your home

AJD

July 3, 2009, 3:28pm (report abuse)

Luke, you are the scariest of all. You swallow all the crap the media throws at you without so much as a gasp. Life is gone in 10 years, polar bears will be gone, ice caps melting, blah, blah , blah!!!! GEt a life and get real!!

Go Kill yourself

July 5, 2009, 10:53pm (report abuse)

Luke take a hint. It's obvious that you don't pay any taxes and that is why money is not an issue with you. It's also quiet obvious that you are in a love/sex affair with Al Gore....you two should go make love with one another and then you might have something more to talk about...in other words, get laid, and take the advise of the others who have posted...get a life or go take your own! DOWN WITH CORRUPT GOVT!!!

The Luke

July 6, 2009, 2:11pm (report abuse)

Not that I need to defend my self, but I'm in a happy union and do pay quite a bit of taxes on my 90k salary. And it's not that I have plenty of money either. Cost of living is very high in the SF Bay Area, and everything that is left over goes to paying for my Masters degree and my partner's college. I have nothing in my savings accounts and I don't care. What's more important is my happiness and my health. Rather than lusting after and spending money on material possessions that I spend my time enjoying the wilderness and making myself healthier and stronger.

I also don't buy into what the media says. I believe that the American media is so F***ed up and biased that I don't watch the news or read newspapers for the most part. I do my own research rather than having someone else do it for me.

Maybe some of you should try that sometimes. Think for yourselves and do your own investigation rather than following FOX like a religion.

TheLuke

July 6, 2009, 2:14pm (report abuse)

And as far as paying taxes go...More than half our taxes go to the military. Maybe we should stop building weapons that can kill and concentrate on fostering life.

jayvetman

July 6, 2009, 7:44pm (report abuse)

Ah!!!! Luke of SF area. That explains a lot. The home of wealthy N. Pelosi, the leader of the left and cohort in bringing our nation to its knees and into a incarnation as a third world country. Keep researching, Luke, go outside the normal youtube channels, and leftie websites. Grow a little, take a chance, find a different perspective, open to the possibility that global warming, climate change is nothing more than a hoax to get more of everybody's money and give power to the leftist elite. Open up, Luke, breathe, it's okay, your friends will still like you if you find something that doesn't agree with what Obama espouses. Really, it's okay to grow.

TheLuke

July 7, 2009, 1:58pm (report abuse)

I'm not a fan of Obama at all. Why do you make all these assumptions. As I told you, I'm not wealthy. Every penny I make goes to bills and college loans. I'm not a Democrat either. In fact I think the two party system is a sham. Obama won't bring change, he's just as bad (or worse) as any other politician. He seems to be more of a "media-whore" than anything. All of you tell me to open my mind but yet you can only see things as leftist or rightist. I doesn't take a liberal to see that we're screwing over our planet just like it doesn't take a rightist to see that people must have the right to bear arms. Tell me for example why in many locations I am strongly advised not to eat fish that I catch. Or why I can't go swimming in a vast percentage of rivers in the US. Explain to me why the air over our cities is black and not clear.

IMHO, the biggest ploys to steal money from the public are the military, and the recent big business bailouts.

TheLuke

July 7, 2009, 2:01pm (report abuse)

Also, will someone explain to me how "go kill yourself" or "you need to get laid" is an intelligent argument, or proves any sort of point. I spoke of policy, yet most of you started making person attacks on me. Not one of you pointed me to an intelligent article about why global warming is a sham, why polar bears won't be gone, why fish in the oceans will survive.

TheLuke

July 7, 2009, 2:10pm (report abuse)

Furthermore, reading all these "global warming is a sham" articles, not a single one of them is anything more than an individual's opinion. Not one has a link to any sources, let alone a published article.

TheLuke

July 7, 2009, 2:19pm (report abuse)

One more thing, I don't even live in Pelosi's district. That would be the 8th, I'm in the 14th.

magicmikey

(logged-in user) July 7, 2009, 8:56pm (report abuse)

i do my own research as well as my own conclusions. here are my points 1)if we pass this bill the few manufacturing jobs left in the US will go overseas where the is no enviromental regulations and make even more pollution! this is a global problem isn't it. 2) global temperatures have been declining since 1998 along with ocean temps and the ice packs have been growing. 3) co2 makes up 1/3 of 1% of our atmosphere and it is estimated we are responsible for 1/2 of 1 percent of that. 4)the earth has never had a stable temp its whole life with or without us. In conclusion there isn't a concensus that we are warming the earth there isnt even agreement the earth is still warming. and professor carlin of the EPA released a report showing the cooling trends of the last 10 yrs regardless of a slight increase in co2 and the WH admin supressed it. GE stands to benefit the most from this bill, they own nbc who is hook line and sinker for obama. look outside your treehugger.com website please.

magicmikey

(logged-in user) July 7, 2009, 9:06pm (report abuse)

i love this country and if this bill or universal health care passes, our country as we have known it is over. if you want to see what the whole country will look like if obama gets his way look at california. obama will be writing IOUs because all the jobs will leave but the debt will stay. if the economy doesnt rebound the national debt will choke the life out of us.

TheLuke

July 8, 2009, 2:42pm (report abuse)

magicmikey. 1) proof? 2) can I get a link to your sources 3) I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at here, are you trying to say that just because it is a small amount it doesn't have an impact (how would 1/2 of 1% of ammonia in the bloodstream affect the system that is a human being 4) agree completely. I would love to read the paper. Again you attack the fact that I read something from treehugger.com. I could say the same thing about you reading fox.com? I mean this just makes you sound arrogant and ignorant.

TheLuke

July 8, 2009, 2:44pm (report abuse)

You say you love your country, but what about that country do you love. The currency? The material possessions? The big business that destroys our economy and rapes the consumer at every step? It seems that it is not your fellow countrymen as you do not feel that everyone should have access to healthcare, or clean air, clean water, etc.

TheLuke

July 8, 2009, 2:57pm (report abuse)

I have started looking at Prof. Carlin's work, it is 100 pages so it might take me some time before I finish the whole thing but a few initial points.

1. Prof. Carlin is an economist, not an environmental scientist, so I'm not sure if he is qualified to do this work.

2. The first place I looked was the Prof.'s list of sources. For the most part they seem to come from blogs or some websites. These sources in turn do not cite any sources of their own. The vast majority are not from peer reviewed journals and the few that are seem to discuss methods of addressing global warming rather than trying to argue whether or not global warming exists.

TheLuke

July 8, 2009, 3:03pm (report abuse)

Further question. If Prof. Carlin does not believe Global Warming is a problem, then why is his former publication titled "Why a Different Approach Is Required if Global Climate Change Is to Be Controlled Efficiently or Even at All".

jayvetman

July 8, 2009, 5:24pm (report abuse)

TheLuke. This bill, sir, has nothing to do with "global warming" and everything to do with grabbing more power for the elite. they know better how to do everything than the citizens of this country, that is their attitude. this is what the bill is all about. Prof. Carlin is an analyst for the EPA, he was castigated for letting his findings out due to the fact they did not agree with the Obama plan. that should get you looking more closely at the findings for the flaws of the research. as you seem to be a fairly intelligent individual, i challenge you to do two things. 1. go look at the website for the communist party of USA and compare their agenda to what is happening in this country via the Obama administration. 2. then connect the dots on how this agenda is enhanced by all that the Obama administration is pushing. simple enough. see what you come up with, and look for studies which refute "global warming".

jayvetman

July 8, 2009, 5:40pm (report abuse)

TheLuke. I do agree with you on something. I see the two party system as a sham. Six of one, half a dozen of the other. I sense you are what some call a "tree hugger", which is okay with me as long as you don't expect me to live that life if it doesn't suit me. It does not suit me. I am an American, no hyphen. What this bill does is take that freedom away, for you to live your life as you see fit, as long as you harm no one. There are many laws on the books which could clean up our waters, clean up our air, and take care of the environmentl. They are not enforced for whatever reason, most likely due to the incompetency of our government and its many agencies without clear direction on how to do their jobs. This bill is just another attempt by the elite, left or right, to gain more power and control the populace. Not a good thing. For anyone. Even you. What the supporters don't understand is they are not immune to rules put forth in this bill. The govt. will come after them, too.

TheLuke

July 8, 2009, 7:12pm (report abuse)

jayvetman. I keep asking for someone to point me to these studies. Please do so. Nobody has been able to point me to any peer reviewed (or otherwise credible) source. It seems like Prof. Carlin was criticized by the scientific community not by his disagreement with Obama, but because of the manner in which he conducted his research.

The fact of the mater is, that the damage we do to the environment IS harmful, to everyone. For some reason Global Warming seems to get the most media attention, but as I mentioned, water shortages, biodiversity, non-greenhouse-gas air pollution, etc. are all huge problems. The governments main responsibility is to protect the populous, and that includes protecting its health.

I am not sure what you mean by your statement "I am an American, no hyphen". Specifically the "no hyphen" part.

TheLuke

July 8, 2009, 7:24pm (report abuse)

I have indeed looked at the web-site for the various Communist parties. Ar all socialist ideas so absurd. Is making sure that your neighbor has the basic necessities of life so terrible. I agree, that this is often taken too far, and "wellfare" is handed out to those who chose to squander it only to receive more. It often does seem like the government rewards sloth and laziness. But there are many individuals out there who really cannot help themselves.

This is getting way off track from the conversation at hand. If the government cannot prevent companies such as big-oil from destroying our environment than who will?

I also see the worry about $13k average cost per family of the bill. I am not arguing that this will not be the actual cost, but everyone here has been telling me to stop looking exclusively at my "tree hugging" sites (which I do not). What about the other sources which claim this cost will not be nearly as high, and even ACEEE which claims a per-household savings.

magicmikey

(logged-in user) July 8, 2009, 8:01pm (report abuse)

i apologize The Luke i did not intend to sound ignorant. Please check out globalwarminghoax.com this is where i got some of my info. Another excellent book is Cool It: The Skeptical Environmentalist's Guide to Global Warming by Bjorn Lomborg. But no matter the title of a man nor his credentials make him right. the fact is many credible scientists 25 years ago feared a looming ice age. and 15 years ago thoght we would all go up in smoke from the o-zone hole. they banned cfc's and replaced them with hfc's which is now thought to be more harmful than cfc's. all these so called brilliant scientists can do is speculate. I want my kids to have the opportunities in life that only we americans are so blessed to take for granted. I do not see the point in turning our country into france with 20% unemployment on a good day for a bunch of speculations. If you dont like our capitalist system or this country you should move. Some of us love it just the way it is!

magicmikey

(logged-in user) July 8, 2009, 8:09pm (report abuse)

oh by the way if you hate big business so much who do you think is going to sell and trade these carbon credits? Goldman-Sachs everyones favorite wall street investment firm. The same company that gave us such patriots as king henry paulson, ben bernanke and tim giethner!

TheLuke

July 9, 2009, 11:29am (report abuse)

magicmickey. Interesting site (globalwarminghoax.com) but again where are the peer reviewed publications. This seems more of a collection of rants and raves. I could write a paper entitled "Gravity: The Biggest Sham of All Time" where I explain how there is no such thing as gravity, but that won't actually make it true. The point of peer review is to make sure that the "publication" has an inkling of reality in it.

I was very amused to find "Some Limitations of the Peer Review Process and Its Effect on the AGW", which tries to excuse the lack of peer review in a "publication", as one of the first few comments on the site.

I never said anything about not liking Capitalism, and as far as I remember, the constitution gives me the right to dislike some aspects of the government. In fact, the document seems to encourage me to act on my beliefs, rather than run away.

TheLuke

July 9, 2009, 11:44am (report abuse)

I have yet to see proof that trying stopping global warming == unemployment. Seems like the banks (and other big business) did a fine job of bringing the economy to its knees already. Doesn't this bill call for thousands of new jobs?

TheLuke

July 9, 2009, 11:45am (report abuse)

You're completely right, scientist can only speculate. The debate however, is not whether we are harming [destroying] our environment. The debate is over what effects the damage will have, how severe they will be, and how soon they will strike.

I admit, "Global Warming" is an ill-fitted media term for what is really happing; A massive climate shift resulting in hotter hots, colder colds, drier drys, etc.

My claims are backed up not only by peer reviewed publications, but also directly visible in the world around us. Look at the droughts in India (monsoon is late and not as wet), Australia, California, etc. Try swimming in the Hudson (don't really that will probably kill you). Take a whiff of early morning air and tell me it smells and tastes fresh.

jayvetman

July 9, 2009, 2:00pm (report abuse)

TheLuke. In answer to the socialist ideas, yes, they are pretty much all bad. Because they exert more control less liberty over the general populace where they are supposedly helping. It involves giving up liberty and freedom to have a little security about something. Not worth it. I have worked in the "welfare" field for many years. There were very few clients who were interested in anything but the freebie. They wanted someone else to take responsibility for their lives and give them whatever they wanted. So glad that line of employment is behind me. The planet we inhabit is constantly going through changes irregardless of what its inhabitants (us) do. This bill will not affect those changes one way or the other. Ice ages are a good place to look to see what I mean. What caused those? Caveman fires, probably, if the "global warming/climate change/climate shift theorists had been around at that time. Did you know that at one time the poles were tropical? Check it out. Not manmade.

magicmikey

(logged-in user) July 9, 2009, 3:18pm (report abuse)

TheLuke dont just get on the site and look at the headlines, look at the satellite maps and click on the links. These a real scientists with credentials who dont buy it. What do you consider peer reviewed? All gore reviewing it and saying its true or maybe nancy pelosi or msnbc owned by GE the largest manufacture of wind turbines? use some good old common sense luke. If manufactures of goods cant afford to stay competitive in the states they will move overseas where there is no EPA, lower wages, and less taxes, and cheaper energy. Is that to complicated? If they do stay they will pass on the higher costs of doing business to its customers (we the people). which in turn will grow govt beurocracy and shrink the private sector. or do you need common sense peer reviewed as well?

magicmikey

(logged-in user) July 9, 2009, 7:02pm (report abuse)

luke you dont actually think the dust bowl of the 1930s was caused by humans do you? only about 2% of the worlds population owned cars then. only about 5% of the worlds population had electricity. I am glad to see you persue facts and dont just follow others opinions but sometimes you have to put the emotions away and use a little common sense something the world lacking these days. this bill will kill industry in America but it wont kill industry. factories will either move overseas or americans will buy forign products that will be even cheaper than our products than they are now. how will that solve the "GLOBAL" warming problem. it wont it will just move our jobs and over seas. the only way cut down on co2 output globally is to kill the engine of the world economy,(thats us) which seems to be the goal of this administration.

magicmikey

(logged-in user) July 9, 2009, 7:07pm (report abuse)

if our economy contracts by 50% we will no longer be the world super power. maybe thats what you want maybe you think china or russia would make a better super power. or are you so naive to believe there would be world peace with the us military fighting for freedom and liberating countries taking no ones freedom except its own constituents

magicmikey

(logged-in user) July 9, 2009, 8:28pm (report abuse)

"The Earth is not warming. The 28-year period of warming between 1970 and 1998 stopped dead in its tracks, and the climate has been cooling ever since.Meteorologist and Weather Channel founder John Coleman put it this way: �In the face of a rapidly cooling planet, all the proponents of global warming can do is to lamely suggest that global warming has gone on vacation and is taking a 10-year hiatus on account of the absence of sun spots.The climate is in a cooling phase: A pronounced global cooling has set in so far this century. This year, most of the northern hemisphere, except for Western Europe, experienced what most scientists say was the harshest winter in decades.

magicmikey

(logged-in user) July 9, 2009, 8:28pm (report abuse)

And this year, winter has come early with record-breaking cold and October blizzards.I have reported previously that 13 top scientists, including one Nobel Prize winner, wrote a letter to U.N. Secretary General Ban Ki-moon saying that, while carbon dioxide levels have continued to rise, global temperatures have fallen, dramatically contradicting the claim that high carbon dioxide levels cause global warming."

justdude

July 11, 2009, 4:30pm (report abuse)

When Congress and D.C. in general, practices what they preach, I am on board. Until then, "just say no" to pork and ignorant spending.

gnarles11

July 12, 2009, 3:16am (report abuse)

magicmikey, you're correct about the cooling but not correct about it disproving climate change, increase CO2 in the atmosphere is causing massive ice melt in Greenland, Antarctica and the top part of Russia. This massive influx of fresh water mixing with the salt water in the ocean is affecting the oceanic conveyor belt. The oceanic conveyor belt is a huge river of water inside the ocean, sounds weird but it has been keeping Europe a lot warmer than it is supposed to be at it's latitude because warm water from the gulf of Mexico is constantly flowing up to around the coast of Northern England, Norway making the air warmer and winters less harsh it's been that way for thousands of years. Now with human intervention the conveyor belt is slowing down and the warm water isn't getting up there as efficiently so we'll see a chilling affect and colder winters.

magicmikey

(logged-in user) July 12, 2009, 4:43pm (report abuse)

gnarles i agree there has been a warming trend in the last 20 years. but i am far from convinced that it is primarily from co2. a small amount of research will show the parallels of temperature and solar activities are in line and co2 is not. I am an environmentalist but a realistic one. If you all want to cut down on co2 emissions GO NUCULAR POWER! although it is proven that water vapor has a far worse greenhouse effect than co2. wind and solar doesnt pencil out it is quadruple the cost of coal or nuke. the only way to get wind and solar affordable is to subsidize it with federal dollars which ultimately comes from taxpayers. either way we will pay out the a**! in order to change my mind on this bill you will have to prove to me that the sun doesnt effect our temperature on earth and that the co2 we produce wouldnt just be increased overseas along with their economies.

magicmikey

(logged-in user) July 12, 2009, 4:57pm (report abuse)

also gnarles how do you explain these temperature change eras on earth? 1) the ice age 2)the midieval warm period 800ad-1400ad when the vikings colonized the greenland ice sheet. and 3)the little ice age 1650-1850. I am sure if there were envirofreaks back then they would have said it was human caused as well.

TheLuke

July 14, 2009, 12:17pm (report abuse)

Peer review has a meaning that is common knowledge (at least among those that use it). Publications are reviewed by a certain number of unbiased readers who make sure that sources are cited and that the publication is based on truth not fiction.

The greatest travesty of the environmentalist movement is calling what is happening "Global Warming". Those ignorant to its effects think that it is all about heat. It should have been called "Global Climate Change" or something similar. The overall result is that the hots are hotter, dries drier, colds colder, etc.

I agree that the earth goes through natural cycles. Nobody is arguing against that. The problem is that we are interfering with the natural cycles.

TheLuke

July 14, 2009, 12:25pm (report abuse)

As far as welfare, jvetman, I couldn't agree with you more. There are those that are just looking for the handout. They do not deserve it and I have no problem with letting these people die of hunger in the streets.

However, there are those that do try, and do really need it. There are many individuals that are sick, handicapped, etc. and simply cannot work. There are also those, that simply cannot find work.

The government should not just give handouts. I myself have no idea what sort of system they should implement to prevent this, but there are many experts in the field who should be able to come up with a solution. Nobody should be sitting around waiting for the next handout. Except in the most dire situations these individuals should be required to at the very least do community service.

magicmikey

(logged-in user) July 14, 2009, 9:28pm (report abuse)

prove it luke prove to me that the increased solar activities that took place in the 20 years that mysteriously subsided in 1997 have not effected our climate. prove it to all of us that this isnt a natural temperature shift. we have only been recording and documenting temperatures globally for 50+ years a mere .05% of the time elapsed from the last ice age to present day. common sense is non-partisan at least i hope how could any credible scientist base a global base temperature on such a small window of climate. anyway being green is like a religion, everyone needs something to live for. i feel like im trying to talk someone out of being a christian. you would think that would be easy being that there is no hard proof that jesus was the son of god but there is no hard proof that co2 alone is causing our global temperature to be different than it should, since it changes all the time and we dont even know what it should be or if we can change it.

magicmikey

(logged-in user) July 14, 2009, 9:38pm (report abuse)

but even without proof of these things you still cant let go of your faith that al gore your god is 100% right. you question the validity of his teachings not one bit following the pied pipers without applying logic or common sense. i like clean air, trees and clean water to but im practical and use my head and not my emotions. prove to me anyone out there that this bill wont hurt our countries economy. prove to me that the co2 we emit manufacturing the few things left wont just go to china or india. and if we really want to cut down on our co2 without forcing people to live in the 18th century why dont we build nuclear power plants???

magicmikey

(logged-in user) July 14, 2009, 10:35pm (report abuse)

the arctic ice sheet has added 430,000 square kilometers since 2006 despite a slight rise in co2 explain that if you can!

http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/

antarctic ice sheet has been growing since 1979 when records began explain that!!!

do you people do your own research and study history or just wander around blindly following your god al gore?

http://talkingabouttheweather.…tic-ice-growing-nor-shrinking/

TheLuke

July 16, 2009, 1:42pm (report abuse)

magicmikey, I'm not sure how you are interpreting the data. It clearly states that the ice sheet is 430,000 km^2 larger than in June of 2006 (not that it gained that much since June). It also states that June 2006 was the record low since 1979 so it is reasonable that the sheet is larger this year. It is still 700,000 km^2 below the 1979 to 2000 average.

If you look at the comparison against past Junes you can see a 3.3% loss per decade trend.

Again 2006 is an "extreme", a "record breaker".

nweav

July 16, 2009, 1:54pm (report abuse)

@magicmikey

I'm not sure why you think we've only been measuring temperature for 50 years, http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/

if you look at Table Data: Global and Zonal Mean Anomalies dTs you'll see we've got data from at least 1880.

but even if this were not true, using a small window to determine what is happening at a much larger scale is a scientifically proven method. You don't think we measured the speed of light by having two scientists stand 186,282.397 miles apart with one flashing the light and the other measuring the exact second he sees it do you?

TheLuke

July 16, 2009, 1:55pm (report abuse)

http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/2009/010709.html

Read the part about "2008 Year In Review"

In response to the "talkingaboutweather" post, where did that graph come from?

Also, the Russian sea captains "perception" is no necessarily valid scientific proof. Maybe there was more ice on his route? Maybe it's getting warmer and warmer so him seeing ice at all made it seem like there was more of it. Who knows? It is not scientific in any way whatsoever.

TheLuke

July 16, 2009, 1:56pm (report abuse)

What do you propose to do with the nuclear waste?

TheLuke

July 16, 2009, 2:05pm (report abuse)

Why do you keep calling Al Gore a god. Do you think so highly of him? Certain religions might consider this blasphemous.

You also make it sound like Al Gore is the only one who believes in global warming.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/10/science/10survey.html?_r=1

You may have to register to read that article but here is the relevant quote from it:

"And while almost all of the scientists surveyed accept that human beings evolved by natural processes and that human activity, chiefly the burning of fossil fuels, is causing global warming, general public is far less sure."

magicmikey

(logged-in user) July 17, 2009, 12:22am (report abuse)

YUCCA MOUNTAIN!!!!! you people never cease to amaze me. You envirofreaks are the problem with this energy and environmental situation we face and heres why. 1) nuclear is the only feasible way to provide affordable energy with no air pollution to run electric cars or make the hydrogen to run cars. But you greeniacs cant cope with it. 2) wind power is extremely expensive but even then ted kennedy wont look at them 10 miles offshore of marthas vinyard. and the energy companies invested millions of dollars on wind farms in the san juaquin valley only to be shut down cuz of people like you complaining they kill to many birds!!! 3) there is no greener more affordable energy than hydroelectric but your envirofreek buddies keep suing to get them taken out because fish cant go up a fish ladder?WTF?? idiots!

magicmikey

(logged-in user) July 17, 2009, 12:29am (report abuse)

4) i live in oregon and when Pacific power wanted to build a geothermal electric plant in eastern oregon the greenies blocked it said it would ruin the scenery. You guys are a joke with no solutions just gripes. I am all for clean energy, clean air and leaving our children with a clean planet and the same opportunities in life i have had. luke if you want to smell clean air GET OUT OF FRISCO!!! no matter what you say it still wont change the fact this bill is a job killing, corruption spewing, political back slapping, money sucking piece of trash that wont cool the earth .1 degree!!! these socialist tyrants and czars you people voted in wont do a thing but hurt this countrys future just like you luke.

magicmikey

(logged-in user) July 17, 2009, 12:48am (report abuse)

sorry i got a little carried away. i just hate this bill.

TheLuke

July 17, 2009, 12:34pm (report abuse)

I didn't realize how much of idiots and a joke I and all the other envirofreaks are. Good point. That was a really well formed, intelligent argument. I have no choice but to concede.

As for global warming, I realized that there must just be something wrong with the screen. If I look at all the data upside down it confirms your suspicions that global warming is indeed a sham. Thank you for pointing out the errors in my logic as I must now make my way to a sporting goods store to obtain heavy coats and skis/snowshoes as the temperature is obviously getting much cooler.

TheLuke

July 17, 2009, 4:25pm (report abuse)

As for your points:

1) Let's forget about the toxicity of nuclear waste and what happens if dissaster strikes and one of our power plants or waste storage facility are damaged. What about estimates that we only have a few decades of Uranium left? [http://tinyurl.com/5d9tfk]

2) I agree. Wind power is an excellent option and even sites such as treehugger.com agree. [http://tinyurl.com/nhs6o]

TheLuke

July 17, 2009, 4:25pm (report abuse)

3) Hydroelectric I agree, can also probably be done correctly. Currently, massive dams do hurt the fish, environment, locals, etc. Take the Klamath River for example. [http://tinyurl.com/nhr2co] 4) I'm sorry I'm not familiar with this situation, but geothermal also seems like a good solution. You also did not once mention solar power. This is an excellent alternative and there is much research in this area. Producing solar cells with inkjet printers [http://tinyurl.com/yofsa9] makes the cost comparable to fossil fuel energy. There are companies that have this in production for less than a dollar a watt . [http://tinyurl.com/knpgot] The problem is that energy companies don't want to invest in these technologies. Dirty energy must be regulated and made unfavorable before there is a pardigm shift. Finally, sorry to correct you on this, but czar and communist just don't match. Communism calls for the abolishment of royalty. Czar Nicholas the II was in fact executed by communists.

magicmikey

(logged-in user) July 17, 2009, 9:06pm (report abuse)

ohh sorry luke guess i struck a nerve.:) there are two types of uranium U-235 and u-238. most of our current plants are set up to use 235 which is less common but easier more reactive. it is estimated there is 100 years of u-235. U-238 however is as plentiful as lead and there is enough to last the entire planet for over 2000 years. http://www.nei.org/howitworks/nuclearpowerplantfuel/

so let me get this straight you pinehead. the thousand different temperature changes on earth were all natural except this one is strictly caused by co2 and nothing else. The very little co2 this bill may restrict in our country wont be emitted more heavily in other countries. nuclear is not an option cuz we only have a hundred years of it. wind power is ok as long as it doesnt kill birds. geo thermal is ok as long as you cant see it. hydro is ok as long as the fish dont have to use a fish ladder. solar is cheap energy right now. And obamas czars are alright with you.

magicmikey

(logged-in user) July 17, 2009, 9:12pm (report abuse)

people like you are the problem. you have no immediate solution just pick and complain about every option if it doesnt make you FEEL ok. I havent heard one solution from you luke not one except printing my own solar cell. If was feasible people would be doing right now thats the wonder of capitalism.

magicmikey

(logged-in user) July 17, 2009, 9:51pm (report abuse)

why dont you try coming up with LOGICAL solutions for our energy future instead of taxing coal and oil. or maybe once we start paying 5 dollars per kilowatt hour wind and solar will seem logical. or maybe companies and citizens will just move to countries that have people with a brain running them.

magicmikey

(logged-in user) July 17, 2009, 10:01pm (report abuse)

wind and solar are not "hard power" meaning sometimes the wind doesnt blow and the sun doesnt shine. they could make an extremely expensive addition to a hard power grid but could never take the place of coal or even better nuclear! unless you like rolling blackouts in the winter and elderly people dying in their apartments with no heat or a/c. But then again who cares as long as fish dont have to go up a ladder or birds dont get killed by a wind generator.

magicmikey

(logged-in user) July 18, 2009, 10:52pm (report abuse)

http://www.lomborg.com/

bjorn lomborg now this guy actually has a brain and he uses it. he is an independent thinker with real feasible solutions which is more than i can say about you.

magicmikey

(logged-in user) July 19, 2009, 1:26am (report abuse)

anyone else interested in proving luke wrong should visit this site

http://www.petitionproject.org…rticle/Review_Article_HTML.php

it is even complete with facts, wow. each fact is denoted with a # corresponding to the chart of references on the last page.

TheLuke

July 20, 2009, 11:14am (report abuse)

magicmikey, I agreed with you that hydro can be done correctly and wind energy is fine. Most "environmentalists" agree that it is a good clean source of energy and that the "bird genocide" is just a myth. Why are you still trying to argue those points?

Energy gathered when the sun does shine and the wind does blow can be stored for later use. This, and efficient generation, are both frequently researched areas.

You say we will be paying $5 per kilowatt hour, but I sent you links to articles that show solar cells cost

TheLuke

July 20, 2009, 11:14am (report abuse)

It does seem like Lomborg does indeed use his brain and I would enjoy reading his book. I'm sure he makes interesting arguments without insulting anyone. However, this whole debate started with you attempting to refute Global Warming, which you still are doing. Lomborg does not claim Global Warming does not exist. I never claimed to have a solution to the energy problem, but merely that it exists.

With that said, I'm done. I'm sorry, but I just can't argue with someone who can't make a logical argument (not that you didn't make some interesting points some of which I am still thinking about) without turning to insult. I too could resort to ad hominem and come up with a list of nasty things to say about you, but what would that say about me?

Enjoy the rest of your life,

Luke

RGoodrich

(logged-in user) July 31, 2009, 6:21pm (report abuse)

First of all, until China, India, Brazil, and Russia (known in the financial world as BRIC) come into compliance with half of the green laws we have, you can forget about climate change. Brazil is actually at the stage where they are running almost entirely off of Ethanol but they are still hacking down forests. Anytime you have an industrial nation who's population is so dense and laws are so lax that you can't hold the Olympics there...enough said. Second, all I here from us is cut emission, cut emissions and cut emissions. YOUR STILL EMITTING PIN HEAD. How about Al Gore takes control and gives us the solution. HEY AL, WHAT DO WE DO??? Nothing from him. More to come.

ThePerson

August 4, 2009, 2:00am (report abuse)

@All the Stupid People, particularly magicmikey

Here is some logic for you.

1)Take the air we breathe which has a certain amount of stuff in it.

2)Dig up fossil fuels which have been buried in the earth.

3)Add it all to the air that we breathe by burning it.

Tell your child that this has no effect. That the world changes naturally and we have no effect on it what so ever. That the Dust Bowl wasn't created by plowing under the Great Plains. That the Dead Zone at the mouth of the Mississippi River the size of Conneticut was created by God instead of Midwest farmers with commercial fertilizers.

You people are so blind by believing that we have no control over the environment. Hopefully you won't have children because there are already too many people in the world, particularly people like you.

brucy56@hotmail.com

August 4, 2009, 9:49am (report abuse)

We all know that we may expel as much CO2, now sequestered underground, into the atmosphere without any consequences. Duh we breathout CO2. It's like ya know humans consist mostly of H2O and that's why we can breath under water. And that's also why we can fight communism by "burn baby" burning as much stuff as want because the founding father freedom markets will rightly say who lives and who dies.

Chessmonkey

August 11, 2009, 11:00am (report abuse)

These tirades, all this name calling, all the emoting with very little logic or research backing it up, these comments say more about what's going wrong with America than anything Congress is doing. I fear for our nation.

Detn8ur

August 19, 2009, 8:30am (report abuse)

I do not believe the global warming is a direct result of human beings and most would want you to believe that it is American Human beings.... We can only fix ourselves....But there is no need.

Why do they call it global warming when all the science indicates a cooling trend.

We just experienced the coolest July on record in HISTORY in the Ohio Valley... I don't buy it.

The only place its warming is in Washington. Do you realize how hot it is when the US Mint is printing money to spend with no collateral to support. Honestly, Washington really doe not believe that the Earth is going to die in 10 or else they wouldn't be creating a debt that my Great Grandchildren will still be paying off in 50 years.

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