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S. 1877, A bill to amend title 4, United States Code, to prescibe that members of the Armed Forces and veterans out of uniform may render the miltary salute during hoisting, lowering, or passing of flag
- This item is from the 110th Congress (2007-2008) and is no longer current. Comments, voting, and wiki editing have been disabled, and the cost/savings estimate has been frozen.
Comparing revision saved on July 27, 2007, 19:12:57 (webmaster), with revision saved on October 22, 2007, 18:39:37 (webmaster):
S. 1877 would amend title 4, United States Code, to prescibe that members of the Armed Forces and veterans out of uniform may render the miltary salute during hoisting, lowering, or passing of flag.
== Detailed Summary ==
<summary>
(Log in to edit<b>(This measure has not been amended since it was introduced. The summary of that version is repeated here.)</b>
Allows members of the wikiArmed Forces and be the firstveterans who are out of uniform to provide a detailed summaryrender the military salute during the hoisting, lowering, or passing of the bill!)flag.
</summary>
<!--Leave in the 'summary' tags if you want the latest summary from the Congressional Research Service automatically to replace the text between the tags once it becomes available. -->
== Status of the Legislation ==
<status>
Latest Major Action: 7/26/2007:8/10/2007: Referred to House committee.subcommittee. Status: Referred to the House CommitteeSubcommittee on the Judiciary.Constitution, Civil Rights, and Civil Liberties.
</status>
<!-- Leave in the 'status' tags if you want the latest reported status from THOMAS automatically to replace the text between the tags once it becomes available. -->
== Points in Favor ==
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== Points Against ==
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Visitor Comments
Rich
August 3, 2007, 7:06am (report abuse)Simple, elegant, no Pork.
What a great piece of work.
Steve Palmer
August 4, 2007, 10:33pm (report abuse)BRAVO!!!! As a veteran, I am proud of my service and am pleased I will be able to salute the flag that represents the country I served and love.
Jim
August 7, 2007, 2:28am (report abuse)What a waste of time! Are civilians forbidden to salute? Is this an attempt to give us vets back some of our civil rights? I'm not subject to the UCMJ anymore, I'll salute if I feel like it!
Bill Silvey
August 7, 2007, 9:48am (report abuse)In the military we followed the rules and showed our respects to the military and the flag. That meant when not in uniform you were not suppose to salute now we have the option. For the Veterans who honor tradition this gives us back the ability to honor our flag and country with the proper salute, that we did while in uniform. Our men and women of the armed forces both past and present can render the salute again to the flag of OUR country that we have had the honor of defending. Thank you for clearing this honor.
Lewis Bartlett
August 7, 2007, 10:35am (report abuse)I am very excited about the passing of this bill. A man who has served or is serving country should never feel inapropriate
V. Robertson (LTC Retired)
August 8, 2007, 8:56am (report abuse)As opposed to Jim's comment, as a veteran, I view this amendment as an honor and privilege for those of us who have served by allowing us to continue saluting even in retirement. This law institutes a concrete sign of solidarity between veterans and those on active duty. A civilian who has not served still honors the flag, but does so differently from those of us who are officially authorized to salute the flag. Bravo.
M. Richards
August 9, 2007, 1:33pm (report abuse)Unfortunately some still think "It's all about me and what I want" If hand saluting out of uniform before this bill is signed...yup...your breaking the law...and as stated, you don't care....Hurry President Bush and let us exercise our arms to the brown as well as to the heart.
Derek Lovett
August 9, 2007, 5:58pm (report abuse)A salute to the flag is an honor for those of us who have served, but it also a salute to those that served and did not come home.
POW/MIA.
Never Forget.
Dr. Wilbur Barber
August 10, 2007, 12:13am (report abuse)As a retired veteran, I still feel the pride of saluting our flag. Its a reminder of those who gave it all to maintain the freedoms that we still enjoy, on a daily basis. It also shows the pride of what us veterans gave to keep this country free. If some people do not agree with this, then thats their right-given to them by us veterans. God Bless America!
Paul Frederick
August 10, 2007, 10:33am (report abuse)To some, it may be just a piece of cloth. To those of us that have served under it, it is much more. It represents the best of our nation and honors those who have given their all defending our values. Irrespective of individual politics, it is pride and patriotism that motivates those of us who served to want to salute - it represents our sacrifices to protect our nation and our loved ones living here. We have earned the privilege to salute, and I will do so it at every opportunity. Since retirement, I have observed protocol by placing my hand over my heart, but I look forward to the privilege of saluting the colors again. Thank you Senator Inhofe.
John J Coppinger
August 10, 2007, 2:45pm (report abuse)AS a veteran I am honored to have served the U.S. and to me it is an HONOR TO SALUTE YHE FLAG God Bless America
Chief G.
August 10, 2007, 5:09pm (report abuse)I honor the flag whether I am saluting, or holding my hand over my heart. When I do, my focus is on respecting the flag and not on showing myself off as an active duty servicemember (don't look at me, look at the flag!). You want to recognize US, protect and improve our pay and benefits NOW and when we retire or become disabled. My shipmates are getting hurt; legislate improved facilities and equipment, and quit wasting my tax dollars on meaningless proposals like this.
SFC M. Joseph
August 11, 2007, 2:30am (report abuse)You mean to tell me, that before this bill was submitted, the "Salute Police would walk up to a retired or disabled veteran and tell him he was out of line for saluting our flag? To hell with a man who would even challenge someone respecting the flag in any fashion. I know we earned the honor of doing so, but for those fallen warriors before us, a family member may wish to remember their heroic loved one in this way.
With much respect to Chief G. for pointing out the tax dollar issue,
If it must be done to legalize our privledge, I would rather my tax dollars go to this, than the wasteful Multi-Billion dollar New Embassy Compound in Baghdad. It is well with in RPG range from across the Tigress but, some contractor,(perhaps not even an American) got kickbacks I am sure, by selling this stupidity to our government.
At least we can salute our flag that so many people take advantage of and for granted, while the stupidity and waste in our tax dollars and lives continue.
S. Crockett (LTC retired)
August 15, 2007, 12:21pm (report abuse)I think it is great but this is just the Senate side. HR 3380 was just introduced in the House and must pass, then to the President for signature.
Herb Hornung
August 15, 2007, 3:59pm (report abuse)This will be setting a good example of the expression of patriotism to our "civilian" friends and neighbors. It always surprises them when they see how many of us (patriotic former military) there really are. Sometimes they are totally shocked, like when Art Buchwald stood at attention, at a dinner, when they played the Marine Hymn.
J W MAURER OH Judge Advocate
August 16, 2007, 1:21pm (report abuse)My concern is that everyone will begin saluting, and the salute will then lose the distinction it now has. Folks won't know that only military veterans have the privilege, will see some doing it, and will start to copy-cat.
Nice sounding idea, except flawed in practice and implementation. As usual, a poorly thought out move by a politician to improve their personal standing, at the expense of centuries of military tradition.
Rick
August 17, 2007, 8:12am (report abuse)Jim,
When you say "I'm not subject to the UCMJ anymore, I'll salute if I feel like it!" you really show your ignorance. I'm glad you weren't part of my Branch of service. Title 4 of the US Code is law for everyone, it has nothing to do with UCMJ, it is a law of the United States.
Bill Willard
August 17, 2007, 9:53am (report abuse)As a former Sgt in the Marine Corps, I must say it is the greatest honor to render the appropriate respect to our flag. We were always taught to face the flag and come to attention when in civilian attire. This training is deeply engrained and on many occassions, I get questioned by unknowing civilians as to why I did not "Salute" the flag. Not being a veteran, they just don't understand.
"Miztah" Rogers
August 17, 2007, 2:46pm (report abuse)I am a retired Master Sergeant, having served 21 years in the U.S. Air Force. I loved every day of my service. I do however wonder why we are wasting the time of our citizens by pandering to veterans. This Senate bill 1877"Allowing Veterans to Salute the Flag" is ridiculous. Why do I need the governments permission to do what is not prohibited.
Let me explain: There is no law that says I cannot salute the flag as a retiree. The current guidance merely leaves that out, it does not prohibit it. I frequently as a retiree salute my country's flag very proudly and publicly, even while in civilian attire, and I have never been rebuked.
WE DO NOT NEED MORE LAWS!!!
WE DO NOT NEED YOUR PERMISSION TO DO WHAT IS NOT PROHIBETED!!!
This is meaningless pandering when our country is in need of much more attention on the borders, on the battle field and on issues of tax reform. Why don’t we just leave the pandering to the Democrats?
Patriot!
August 17, 2007, 2:56pm (report abuse)Oh by the way...In agreement with Miztah, who will "Big Brother" get to ensure that those who are rendering a military style hand salute are actually veterans. Why not let each person express their patriotism as they feel led by their God and their concsience in accordance with the first amendment. And lets leave the Government out of this. Next they might be telling you where you have to live, what kind of job you can have, who you can marry...what happened to FREEDOM?
Chief P (USNR)
August 17, 2007, 4:16pm (report abuse)I was never told not to salute during a parade or such, whil in civvies. But, I felt when not in uniform there was no precedent. I've seen many VFW/Legionaires salute with their caps on, and considered that a kind of uniform and appreciated the honor they showed the flag. But, I always felt somewhat uncomfortable rendereing a salute in civvies. I think I like the bill, although I recognize the tremendous wasted time and efforts by congress pontificating vice legislating. Still, there are many aspect of US Code governing Flag etiquette that are flagrantly violated. (Title 4 Chapter 1 Section 6: "It is the universal custom to display the flag only from sunrise to sunset on buildings and on stationary flagstaffs in the open. However, when a patriotic effect is desired, the flag may be displayed 24 hours a day if properly illuminated during the hours of darkness.")
Glen
August 17, 2007, 11:02pm (report abuse)I will salute PROUDLY, as I feel this was a long time in coming. Those of you like Jim who said "I will salute if I feel like it." didn't get it. You are not required to salute, it's just now that this is passed you "Can" Jim, you just put your hand over you heart if you would rather not be indentified as a veteran.
Pat
August 18, 2007, 10:46am (report abuse)I am glad to see this clarification. I was told the regulations only allowed the hand salute while in uniform. Even when I was on active duty, I was told I couldn't salute the flag while in civilian clothes. I am proud that I can now salute the flag and know that I am not violation Army regulations. Thanks Senator Inhofe.
E. Johnson
August 18, 2007, 3:09pm (report abuse)I have served for 15 yrs now, and plan on retiring in 5. i think this bill is very noble because after I have served my country after 20 long years, I feel I should still have the honor of saluting the flag I have defended. I think it would be a defiant moral for people and also show the community just how many have served, because that is forgotten sometimes if you don't actually see a person in uniform and will defiantly inspire many children to look forward to serving their country when they see how proud and tall veterans stand apart. This should be passed soon, I think we owe the WW2 veterans this honor for they would be able to salute their flag one more time.
Charlie Baker
August 19, 2007, 10:02am (report abuse)Not one to follow frivolous rules, I am surprised that there even was a rule against my saluting. I'm a Vet and salute pretty much when I think it is appropriate. Congress needs to get back to work.
Percy & Nancy / USAF
August 19, 2007, 2:27pm (report abuse)Hurray!!! Now as veterans we can once again salute our flag in honor of our great country.
Jim S
August 20, 2007, 11:06am (report abuse)I have always wanted to salute our flag, even after I was discharged. Instead, I put my hand over my heart as I was susposed to do. Now I can salute again! I already feel the pride swelling up in me to be able to do what the Marine Corps taught me so well.
CW4 PARKER
August 21, 2007, 10:18am (report abuse)I appreciate us vets being remembered. I have seen combat and all of the terribe things that go with it. I do not want to see that type of thing on my own soil. I want to thank all of the legislators that voted for this. I am proud to be an Anerican and for what I have done to keep us as free as we are.
Jim in Alabama
August 21, 2007, 2:18pm (report abuse)This is a great thing! I will be swelled with pride and love of country. Yes, I want other folks to know I served with honor too. I just wish the law makers would waste some more money to pass a bill that would let us smack the little delinquents that disrespect the flag and our National Anthem when they are supposed to be honoring it.
Jennifer WIARNG
August 21, 2007, 4:20pm (report abuse)I agree, Jim in Alabama. When will they pass a law allowing us to set people straight? I am fed up with seeing people brushing their children's hair, popping gum in their mouth, giggling with their girlfriends, and just about everything else noisy and inappropriate during the national anthem or pledge of allegience. All I ask is that they stand still and shut up for 90 seconds while the rest of us pay respect to the flag representing the greatest country on earth!
I for one am glad for the opportunity to salute once again.
Tom
August 22, 2007, 10:24am (report abuse)Problem is, a lot of ignorant, non-vets will use this as an excuse to keep their ball caps on when they shouldn't.
Jenny
August 22, 2007, 12:02pm (report abuse)Forgive my ignorance, and I do respect our veterans, but I thought such things were covered by the First Amendment.
Jared
August 22, 2007, 11:50pm (report abuse)As a vet, that is something that civilians just don't understand. It would give me great pleasure to salute once again. Thank you!
1stSgt T (RET)
August 23, 2007, 11:29am (report abuse)I for one am very proud that this bill is in the process of becoming law. For those of you that don't understand, here is Title 4 of the United States Code, Chapter 1, Section 9:
"During the ceremony of hoisting or lowering the flag or when the
flag is passing in a parade or in review, all persons present except
those in uniform should face the flag and stand at attention with the right hand over the heart. Those present in uniform should render the military salute. When not in uniform, men should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being
over the heart. Aliens should stand at attention. The salute to the flag in a moving column should be rendered at the moment the flag passes."
This Bill will allow Veterans to honor the flag with the proper salute if we choose to. The current law does not allow for it. I for one will be proud to salute the flag, while covered, outdoors! Semper Fi!
SGT B
August 23, 2007, 2:12pm (report abuse)I think that this is a great way for those of us who have a special bond with the flag and country (meaning veterans) to show that in public. As for those of you who say, "Well, I always did it out of uniform anyway, what do I need a law for?" I'm glad you're out of the service now because that sort of blatant disregard for regs doens't have any place in ANY branch. As for the Army, we are crystal clear regarding what to do when in civilian attire and the National Anthem plays...just check AR 600-25, App. A. If you're outside, remove your headgear and right hand over the heart, if you're inside, stand at attention! HOOAH!
John in Virginia
August 24, 2007, 11:26am (report abuse)As a veteran, I am pleased to look forward to permission to salute (once the House passes the bill and the president signs it). I understand the proper procedure as it applies to me and other service members, and I'm glad to have the salute restriction lifted. We should understand however that most people are not service members, and do not understand or accept that there is a restriction on their personal display of patriotism. This bill is not a waste of time, but don't get upset with people who copy your salute. They're patriots too.
Jim Coppinger
August 25, 2007, 6:04pm (report abuse)Glad to hear of it! After 4 years in the Navy, never even in harms way, my patriotic spirit was changed. The flag, the pledge of allegience and our National Anthem, all took on more meaning to me. It will be an honor to salute "Old Glory" again!! John J Coppinger, I appreciate your comment - one Coppinger to another.
Walter Wease
August 29, 2007, 9:06am (report abuse)Bravo Zulu!
Melanie
August 29, 2007, 7:51pm (report abuse)This amends title 4 of the US code; so this means that the conduct during the playing of the national anthem (Title 36, subtitle 1, part A, chapter 3, section 301) remains the same. Wonder why not change them both?
Chief Ski (USAF)
August 31, 2007, 9:52am (report abuse)SIERRA HOTEL
K.G. Schneider
August 31, 2007, 5:25pm (report abuse)Glad this was changed. Melanie... interesting question!
Phil
September 3, 2007, 4:21pm (report abuse)"It's about time". The next job is for ALL of Washigton to get off their duff's and pass THE law making it a criminal offence to burn or multilate OLD GLORY.
Sgt Sandbag
September 4, 2007, 6:27pm (report abuse)I think it is a great start. I think there should be a formal declaration to refuse to prosecute any veteran who shoots a flag burner. This would settle THAT debate without costly prosecution of said flag burners. Who do you think fought for your first amendmant right to protest?
Rusty
September 5, 2007, 11:42am (report abuse)As a vet I still salute, I never stopped being a vet. Oh by the way "Miztah" Rogers, I am a vet and a Democrat, and proud of both.
Chief Stanley
September 5, 2007, 5:04pm (report abuse)I think this is great and will help civilians see just how many of us there are at sporting events or anywhere Old Glory is flown. I agree with Chief Ski. Sierra Hotel!!
MCM1901
September 11, 2007, 12:35pm (report abuse)Respect for our Flag is paid to the flag, not looking around at others.
I am not a veteran (one of a few to be rejected for Viet Nam for physical reasons), but my Father taught us kids a love and respect for our Country and for its Flag.
When our kids were home, carrying on a tradition from my Father, when the Flag was presented or our national anthem was played, someone yelled "Everyone up" and the family stood and salueted our Flag.
Our Soldiers and Veterans deserve more respect than they get. They deserve better pay and medical than they are getting. But understand that civilians like myself can love and honor our Flag as much or more, owing to the debt that we have to the military.
Bottom line is that i feel that this law is not needed. Several of the other commenters are right, we need to address the real issues facing our Country today.
CSM(Ret) Jack
September 20, 2007, 5:37pm (report abuse)What about Saluting during the Pledge of Allegiance? This bill is very specific. I always Salute!!
Scott Cunningham
September 23, 2007, 11:51pm (report abuse)35 years ago, my 10th General Order was to salute all flags and standards unfurelled.
If my oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States is a lifelong oath, this General Order survives with it,
njseabee7
September 25, 2007, 3:34pm (report abuse)I have a one fingered salute for all those that don't think our flag is worth saluting.
LTC(ret) J. Malcolm -Colorado
October 5, 2007, 2:57pm (report abuse)Long time overdue. Lets write some of the comments to the congress and get the House portion complete so our President can sign it. BTW those complaining about the kids and their disrespect should be spending some time in the schools helping instill some respect for our country and its glorious banner. We have student color guards in our local schools (taught by veterans).
theworldhadteeth
October 19, 2007, 10:54pm (report abuse)Those of you who say that this bill is a waste of time or money, do you really believe that skipping it would speed up the introduction of the bills you deem appropriate? Money is being wasted in nearly every facet of our government. Perhaps if this "waste of money" is allowed to pass, the sheer number of us veterans saluting in public may raise public awareness of just how many of us there really are and prompt more legislature aimed at giving active duty members and veterans the support we need and deserve.
I, for one, will be proudly saluting. And so what if you think I'm just doing it for attention. Don't we all deserve a little. Be shameful! Stand up and say, "Yeah, Look at me! I served!" Go ahead, inspire the children watching you. God knows it would be a better influence than what their televisions are teaching them.
Hooyah PJs!
"Miztah" Rogers
October 23, 2007, 3:16pm (report abuse)Rusty,
No offence intended to rank and file hardworking democrats, my pandering comment was aimed at the track record of democrat politicians and elected officials. Not people like you. I have lot's of family and friends who are very strident democrats and I do not think that they pandered. I am sorry if I did not make myself clear, I intended no offense to you or those like you. I too have proudly served and continue to serve alongside very patriotic and non-pandering democrats.
Jim Beck
October 29, 2007, 8:53pm (report abuse)It gives our enemies comfort to see us in disunity. They watch us more carefully than we even watch ourselves and when they see the number of people who show their pride in service through a simple silent act they may be just a little less ready to challenge a country that produces such people. I will be grateful to be allowed to display that pride in service again.
Capt Chris, former USAF
November 8, 2007, 3:09pm (report abuse)I lend my "voice" to echo those comments in support of this bill.
I believe saluting the flag is a great way to show patriotism and solidarity among veterans in these troubled times, and to pay homage to comrades gone but not forgotten, who paid the ultimate sacrifice for that flag to freely wave.
We need to show our nation that we are still here, and that our oaths NEVER expire!
SSG MJC ActiveGuardReserve
November 9, 2007, 3:47pm (report abuse)This bill is awesome! I don't know about the rest of you, but I still get kinda teary-eyed during flag ceremonies that use our National Standard. As an active member of the VFW and still in ACU's every day, this would allow me to show the respect and absolute privilege to the banner of the country I have been so humbled to serve. Besides, as they taught us in boot camp, saluting is a privilege that has to be earned. As an aside, if someone wants to be a pinhead and disrespect the flag, I may disagree with their action, but I will defend their First Ammendment right to be a pinhead.
Roy Jake Jacobs
November 16, 2007, 9:42am (report abuse)Why does it take sooooo long to endorse somehting so meaningful to all Veterans??. Seems like a no brainer. By the way, I'll salute it no matter what the political decision is.
Bill Cooper
December 3, 2007, 7:46pm (report abuse)This great bill passed the Senate back on Jouly 25, 2007 but has it been passed by the House and signed by our President?
Bob Merrilees
December 15, 2007, 6:14pm (report abuse)Does this mean that when I look around me at the 4th of July parade that all of those who are saluting are presently in or have served in the military? Unfortunately not. The only way to tell the truth, assuming that anybody cares about the truth anymore, is to reserve the salute for those in uniform.
This reminds me of the Army's decision to change their rank and file headgear to berets when they had previously been reserved for Special Forces. An example of pandering to the masses at it's worst.
This Marine's hand will be over his heart. I don't have to feel superior to anybody. Semper Fi.
Jim (Ret Cpt)
January 7, 2008, 9:02am (report abuse)While it HAS passed the Senate, it has NOT passed the House. House Bill number is HB 3380. It languishes now in committee.
Until it passes the House, and unless the President then signs it, it's not yet a law.
I am for this bill, but until it becomes law, it is not yet applicable.
trav
October 11, 2008, 11:53am (report abuse)It has passed see:
US Code, Title 4, Chapter 1, Section 9
Also, to Jim, it ain't the UCMJ, it is the Law, i.e. US Code.
There were vets saluting at the football game last night.
Kyle Ford, USMC
November 29, 2008, 11:13pm (report abuse)theworldhadteeth,right on the money my friend. I couldn't agree with you more.