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H.R. 6562, The Agent Orange Equity Act of 2008
- This item is from the 110th Congress (2007-2008) and is no longer current. Comments, voting, and wiki editing have been disabled, and the cost/savings estimate has been frozen.
Comparing revision saved on August 20, 2008, 02:07:07 (Randall), with revision saved on August 20, 2008, 10:08:39 (Randall):
H.R. 6562 would amend title 38, United States Code, relating to presumptions of exposure for veterans who served in the vicinity of Vietnam.
== Detailed Summary ==
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== Status of the Legislation ==
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Latest Major Action: 7/22/2008: Referred to House committee. Status: Referred to the House Committee on Veterans' Affairs.
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== Points in Favor ==
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== Points Against ==
Here is a scenario for discussion. This is based on supposition but is provided as a means to stimulate discussion.
An area of the South China Sea 20 miles by 800 miles would equal 16,000 square miles. This is smaller than the area actually occupied by US navy ships but is used to simplify the calculations and give the benefit to close in to shore ships. If we consider a larger area the concentration of dioxin would be even lower.
At an average depth of 200 feet (considering the slope of the seabed floor away from land, this would amount to 89,210,880,000,000 cubic feet of water.
That equates to 669,081,600,000,000 gallons, or 5,687,193,600,000,000 pounds, of sea water by volume.
By the most speculative account available an estimated 1320 pounds of dioxin was sprayed and/or spilled.
A liberal estimate would be that perhaps half of this total, or 660 pounds, ran off into the rivers and streams. Further, an estimated 50 percent of that actually reached the South China Sea, an amount equal to 330 pounds total. Since dioxin is nearly insoluble it would have attached to sediment. There would certainly be significant sediment settling as the water moved downstream.
Of the 330 pounds that reached the sea an estimated one-half, or 165 pounds, of that would have been at a depth to be pulled into the water intakes, given that there would be further settling of the sediment that contained the dioxin after it reached the sea.
At the end of the 10 year period, if all the above were true and there was no loss of dioxin to other causes (an illogical assumption), the ratio of dioxin in the sea water pulled into the ship systems would be one part dioxin to 34,467,840,000,000 parts sea water. That's 1 part dioxin to 34.467 trillion parts water.
That is one ounce of dioxin in 34.467 trillion ounces of water at the end of the entire 10 year period. Remember this is using the most liberal assumptions to make the calculations and not allowing for any other losses of dioxin content other that settling.
Some things to consider:
It is unlikely that half the total dioxin introduced during the 10 year period actually ended up in the rivers and estuaries. The likely amount is smaller but using this figure gives a greater benefit to the bluewater navy position.
There was certainly a larger loss of dioxin than just that allowed for sediment settling. Current flow and other factors would certainly have aged to the dilution of the concentration.
Since the dioxin was actually introduced over a 10 year period, and we have no true measure of how much was introduced each year, it is impossible to say what the level of dioxin was in the South China Sea at any given time. However if the above is true it would have certainly been considerably less than the one part in 34.467 trillion shown above.
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Visitor Comments
tom ryan tm3 ddg-16
July 24, 2008, 6:48pm (report abuse)DURING THIS SESSION OF CONGRESS ,THIS BILL MUST BE PASSED,
IT CAN'T BE PUT OFF ANY LONGER.
WE ARE DIEING DUE TO THIS EXPOSURE.
CONTACT YOUR CONGRESSMAN
TOM RYAN DDG-16
July 24, 2008, 7:16pm (report abuse)OH,I FORGOT,DURING THIS TIME OF NATIONAL DEFENSE ,NO ONE IN THE US NAVY OR AIRFORCE WAS DRAFTED.THE WERE PATRIOTS AND ENLISTED,ONLY TO RETURN HOME TO SCORN.
Dwayne
July 25, 2008, 7:04pm (report abuse)I have high hopes this isn't just another publicity shot....the Rep who submitted it is also the chairman of the committee it was sent to so, hopefully, it isn't going to get stuck there. We'll see. A lot of people worked really hard to get it this far, Mr Filner didn't just get up Wends morning and say "I think I'll do something about Agent Orange and the Blue Water Navy vets that the VA has been screwing....(BTW, never forget, the VA couldn't have done it if the administration didn't go along with it.
mtkaka
July 26, 2008, 5:12am (report abuse)I filed my VA claim 1/10/2002 and it has an effective date of 7/09/2001 for diabetes, first diagnosed 11/1993. One month after I filed my claim, 2/2002, VA changed the rules. My claim is still at VARO-level, never even made it to first appeal level.
I am now blind as a result of diabetes and have many other "conditions" related to diabetes. My wife is also totally disabled since 10/2005 and we are "surviving" on her SSDI payments. I have not worked since 12/2001.
I have many firends and acquaintances who have already died from AO-related diseases and their claims/survivor benfits died with them.
I awake each day with the sole purpose of outliving the VA bastards.
Support our friends at NVLSP.ORG (National Veterans Legal Services Program), BLUEWATERNAVY.ORG, VNVETS.ORG and VAWATCHDOG.ORG who carry the battle forward each day.
I am still one pissed-off Vietnam Vet.
Roy
July 29, 2008, 2:15pm (report abuse)Let me get this straight, you all think that someone who flew through the skys high above Vietnam was exposed to AO and should be given compensation?
Dwayne
July 29, 2008, 2:21pm (report abuse)For "mtkaka" I couldn't agree with you more. I also have diabetes which was diagnosed in 1995 and have had bouts with prostate cancer, the treatment of which led to bladder cancer. Strangely enough, I'm not mad because they exposed me to Agent Orange, that just went with the territory...the VA's attitude is what infuriates me, especially since they are subverting an act of Congress to deny us our rights.....not "entitlements"...
RIGHTS!
Dwayne
July 29, 2008, 2:29pm (report abuse)For "Roy", in reality, it would depend where they flew from. I wouldn't argue with the VA if they wanted to exclude, for instance, B-52 crews who flew from Guam. The reality is, they didn't pick and chose that way....they just made a blanket ruling that excluded anyone who didn't have "Boots on the Ground" as part of their everyday duty while....at the same time...someone who got off an aircraft in Saigon for a 20 minute layover on a flight from the Phillipines to say Europe...IS qualified for AO benefits. As far as I'm concerned, if some aviators get covered incidently as a result of this bill....so be it! Had the VA made reasonable exclusions instead of blanket rulings to exclude who segments of veterans, I might see it different.
Roy
July 30, 2008, 7:52am (report abuse)Well, to my thinking a B-52 pilot from Guam is just as eligible as a cook on a ship at Yankee Station.
There is still no credible evidence that the miniscule amount of dioxin that might have washed out to sea ever got to any of those ships. The VA did the right thing as far as I am concerned.
Roy
July 30, 2008, 8:32am (report abuse)Many publications lead you to believe 20 million gallons of agent orange was sprayed when in fact 96% of what was sprayed was fuel oil. Herbicide orange, the stuff that came in 55 gallons drums, was only 4% of what was sprayed. The critical "medical condition causing" AO component is dioxin. The IOM has documented that 368 lbs of dioxin was sprayed in ten years. Thats 36.8 lbls per year. If all 13% that did not reach the ground immediately drifted offshore, 4.78 lbs (76.48 oz) of dioxin would have been involved - about 0.21 oz (think eye dropper) per day diluted by millions of cubic feet of air and water constantly in motion and being replentished by currents, etc. How much got to ships evaporative and air intake systems? You get more dioxin in the food and drink you take in everyday than you ever got from Agent Orange.
Van
July 30, 2008, 2:25pm (report abuse)Guam has the highest amounts of dioxin in soil in the world at 19,000ppm. It has 10 military installations that were all maintained with these pesticides. AO was used all over and should be presumptive for all military personnel during Viet Nam unless it can be proven by DoD that it wasn't used.
steve Henson
July 31, 2008, 6:35pm (report abuse)What am saying, that guys like me who were onboard a ship & came with in a 1000 yds.would of gottan fallout from the SKY of the agent orange, you fool it was it was air borne.If u fly above it u do not have it fall on or around u. Come on guy, use some logic not a blanket like the va did.
steve
July 31, 2008, 6:38pm (report abuse)It appears that u work for VA, roy?
tom ryan
July 31, 2008, 10:25pm (report abuse)THE ROCKETS RED GLARE,THE BOMBS BURSTING IN AIR.IF YOU HAVE SEEN IT YOU DESERVE IT.
Ed Kidwell
August 2, 2008, 6:00pm (report abuse)They seem to be saying that firing guns well within the three mile limit of the USA would constitute an attack on the USA but firing guns within the three mile limit of Vietnam (exposed to runoff,rainfall and drinking water distilled from waters that were permeated with Agent Orange ) is DIFFERENT?
Come ON! The government just doesn't want to help WE WHO SERVED there. They had better start honoring their commitments.
tom ryan
August 2, 2008, 7:27pm (report abuse)THESE WORDS FROM THE CONSTITUTION KEEP RUNNING THRU MY HEAD.
"BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY "
TOM RYAN
August 2, 2008, 7:33pm (report abuse)IF I COULD GO BACK IN TIME I WOULD HAVE GONE TO CANADA
Roy
August 3, 2008, 9:29am (report abuse)Well, Mr Ryan, perhaps you should do so now. You spout your patriotism and then make such a statement as that. Leads me to question your veracity.
Roy
August 3, 2008, 11:52am (report abuse)Steve,
No I do not work for the VA. I am a retired 20 + year veteran and retired school teacher. Is it hard for you to believe that someone other than a VA employee would think these claims about off-shore AO are less than credible?
Roy
August 3, 2008, 11:56am (report abuse)Mr Henson,
Since so much of what I see about off-shore contamination laims that the pesticides drifted in the air, why would you say that an airplane would not pass through the so-called mist. The aircraft I flew daily for 15 months made 10-12 take-offs and landings every day. So you think there was no chance I might have flown through what you claim was out there? And you call me a fool!
Roy
August 3, 2008, 12:02pm (report abuse)Mr. Kidwell,
The waters were "permeated." I take that to mean that the waters had high concentrations of dioxin. Is that your claim? That does not hold up to scrutiny when the total amount of dioxin that was actually in the spray was less thab 37 pounds per year. And even if the claims of wind drift and run-off were true, only a small part of that would have actually been involved. Hardly sounds like "permeated" to even the most sympathetic of listeners.
Roy
August 3, 2008, 12:30pm (report abuse)Are any of you aware that the leaded gasoline you all used until 1986 also released dioxin into the atmosphere? How many of you are screaming at the gasoline producers because you have some condition that may be linked to dioxin exposure? I seriously doubt that any one of you is or has done so. Why?
TOM RYAN
August 3, 2008, 2:21pm (report abuse)ROY;WHERE DO YOU GET YOUR FACTS FROM?I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THEM.AS A TEACHER,I'M SURE YOU HAVE READ "DRUMS ALONG THE MOHAWK".I AM A DIRECT DECENT OF J.CHRISTIN SCHNELL.MY FAMILY HISTORY WAS PUT INTO THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS BY AN ACT OF CONGRESS.MY FATHER FOUGHT IN THE BATTLE OF THE BULGE AND MY SON IS CURRENTLY DEPLOYED OVERSEAS IN THE ARMY.PLEASE DON'T QUESTION MY "VERACITY"AS I DON'T QUESTION YOURS.I LOVE AMERICA AND I'M SURE YOU DO ALSO.WHY DOES THIS ISSUE DIVIDE US ALL?IF YOU ARE SICK THE VA HAS A DUTY TO HELP.AM I WRONG?
PLEASE CONTACT ME WITH YOUR FACTS AT tomryan1949@yahoo.com.HAVE YOU SEEN THE WASTELAND OF THE DMZ?NO AO THERE?I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE RESEARCH OF YOUR FACTS I AM YOUR BROTHER IN ARMS,NOT YOUR ENEMY.PLEASE CONTACT ME.
tom ryan
August 3, 2008, 3:12pm (report abuse)p.s.,
dioxin was put into the evaporators to stop slime.so in theory a cook at yankee station could have been exposed to AO.
Roy
August 3, 2008, 4:48pm (report abuse)Mr Ryan,
I can trace my family's service in the military back severa; generations as well. That means not one thing.
Your comment "IF I COULD GO BACK IN TIME I WOULD HAVE GONE TO CANADA" is not one I would ever attribute to a patriot. It is that kind of comment that leads others to question you.
TOM RYAN
August 3, 2008, 8:33pm (report abuse)SO BE IT ROY;I ASK FOR JUST THE FACTS
THAT YOU CAN'T SEEM TO PROVIDE,
HAVE A NICE LIFE.
TOM RYAN
August 3, 2008, 8:37pm (report abuse)p.s.roy,did i hit a nerve with the canada remark?
Roy
August 3, 2008, 11:29pm (report abuse)The only thing you have done is show that you really are not the patriot you would have everyone believe. Any one who would make such a remark, even in jest, is certainly not worthy of respect.
As to the facts, you can find them in the IOM material which is available to anyone with the ability to read. Try www.iom.edu, if you really want to know what the science says.
tom ryan
August 4, 2008, 5:05am (report abuse)roy,could you narrow it down a bit? I googled the site and got 734,000 results.I dont need or ask for your respect,just the facts.
tom ryan
August 4, 2008, 5:20am (report abuse)why do you hide behind the name of just "roy"? It reminds me of the WIZARD OF OZ."PAY NO ATTENTION TO THE MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
tom ryan
August 4, 2008, 2:48pm (report abuse)Blue Water Navy
Vietnam Veterans Association
Welcome to the
BLUE WATER NAVY DIOXIN EXPOSURE
Web Site
Approximately 21 million gallons of Agent Orange were sprayed in Vietnam between 1962 and 1970.
Where do you suppose it all went?
More than a hundred thousand members of the United States Armed Forces who fought in Vietnam between 1962 and 1975
suffer disabilities from the effects of dioxin, found in Agent Orange.Yet, these service personnel are being denied service-connected health care and disability compensation for these diseases
by the Department of Veterans Affairs.
tom ryan
August 5, 2008, 4:06am (report abuse)all,please go to www.bluewaternavy.org,your blood will boil.one morning you are going to wake up and not be a vietnam war vet any longer.you will be reclassified as a vietnam era vet.WHAT A SET OF BALLS THE DVA HAS.PLEASE READ AND POST YOUR COMMENTS HERE.THEY WANT TO STRIP SENATOR MCAIN OF THE TITLE OF A WAR VET TO A VIETNAM ERA VET.HE LANDED IN NORTH VIETNAM AND HE IS NOT QUALIFIED BECAUSE HE NEVER SET FOOT IN THE REPUBLIC OF SOUTH VIETNAM.
MY RESEARCH IS SOLID.I HAVEVEN POSTED MY EMAIL ADDRESS FOR ALL TO CONTACT ME.BEWARE OF THE PERSON WHO POSTS HERE AS "ROY".I HAVE TRIED TO CHECK HIS FACTS AND THEY DONT CHECK OUT.
HE IS SPREADING DISINFORMATION.
MY RESEARCH IS SOLID AND PLEASE VISIT THE SITE.AGAIN www.bluewaternavy.org.they where in congress and spoke the day hr6562 was introduced.please post your comments here."roy"trys to intimidate you into silence.BEWARE OF HIM.SPEAK OUT BROTHERS DONT BE SILENCED!!!!!
Jim Rybolt
August 5, 2008, 9:10pm (report abuse)In the backup info it says that all persons receiving a Vietnam service medal would have presumption of exposure. The bill uses the word vicinity. Have vicinity been defined. Bottom line are the veterans from Thailand included. We flew over the Ho Chi Minh Trail in Laos are we included?
tom ryan
August 6, 2008, 12:58pm (report abuse)jim;go to www.bluewaternavy.org and you will find the answer plus many more answers.ao was dumped in many places,so i can't provide the answer off the cuff for you.
all my best,
tom
Roy
August 6, 2008, 1:41pm (report abuse)Mr Ryan,
Since you wish to rely on bluewaternavy.org as one of your sources perhaps you can explain how 21 million gallons of agent orange were sprayed when records indicate that less than 14 million gallons were actually procured by DOD? This information is available in several places but one that might fit your needs is www.landscaper.net/agent2.htm.
I'm sure you will have some tripe to throw up as obfuscation but how do you explain this?
Bill Bay
August 6, 2008, 2:22pm (report abuse)According to http//en.wkipedia.org/wiki/Agent_Orange, 77 million liters of chemical defoliants were sprayed by the U.S. military in Vietnam between 1962 and 1971. That converts to 20.347 million gallons. Less than two years after I retired from the Navy I was diagnosed with both type 2 diabetes and prostate cancer. I am not fat and jog three miles every other day. My parents and four brothers and sisters do not have these problems. Based on studies that the Australian and New Zealand governments performed, they consider their navy Vietnam veterans exposed. I know that something happend to me during my Naval service that caused my diseases. Can I prove it? No.
Roy
August 6, 2008, 3:33pm (report abuse)Mr Ray,
As you can see there as many different reports as you want to look for about Agent Orange. Which one is correct? It appears that many of the different sites are actually lumping all the Rainbow defoliants - orange, blue, white, etc., together and using that number as the Agent Orange number.
Diabetes and cancers, while often following family lines, are not necessarily hereditary. We were exposed to a great many things in our military careers. Whether these contributed to our problems or whether our individual lifestyles were the major player is something we will probably never know.
tom ryan
August 6, 2008, 9:33pm (report abuse)roy,as per your website"landscaper" you should read it.it also has an article by columbia u.saying 21 millon gallons was used,far above your mini estimate.
AGAIN MISINFORMATION BY YOU!
Roy
August 6, 2008, 11:14pm (report abuse)tom, tom, tom,
If you would read carefully the study says as much as 21 million gallons of herbicides. There were several herbicides used, not just Orange.
But then again, I am not surprised that you cannot accept anything but what you wish to believe.
So sad to see such a delusional person as yourself.
tom ryan
August 7, 2008, 9:55am (report abuse)roy,i agree more than one herbicide was used,but the majority was AO.I might very well be "delusional",but it goes back to the fact that presumption of exposure is in the va codes.What is "sad"is the fact that many vets are sick and dieing from their service.Do you think its right the VA is turning its back on them?Is this to be the VA'S LEGACY TO US?DON'T YOU THINK THE VA SHOULD HELP A SICK VET NO MATTER WHAT?
all my best,
TOM
tom
August 7, 2008, 6:24pm (report abuse)per www.landscaper.net 13,927,985 lbs
of agent orange was procured by the DOD.11,712,860lbs were used and it was 60% of ALL herbicedes used in vietnam.Thats scary since a micro amount of dioxin is toxic to humans
.also a product known as SILVEX was used in the ship evaporators to stop algee and slime growth in the fresh water tanks.Drinking Dioxin,is that exposure???????It made great coffee
Roy
August 7, 2008, 8:18pm (report abuse)You get more dioxin in the food and drink you take in everyday, the air you breathe, the environment around you, than you ever got from Agent Orange.
http://pubs.acs.org/cen/topstory/8127/8127notw6.html
http://www.iom.edu/?id=13097&redirect=0
http://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=10763#toc
http://www.ejnet.org/dioxin/
http://www.dioxinfacts.org/dioxin_health/dioxin_tissues/dioxin_toxicity...
tom
August 7, 2008, 11:19pm (report abuse)Numerous health effects have been linked to exposure to DLCs, including skin damage, cancer, non-insulin-dependent diabetes in adults, neurological and immune system impairments in infants, and endocrine system disruption. Many of these effects were identified in individuals who had high levels of exposure. However, information is limited on how low-level DLC exposure through foods, defined as occurring in everyday life, influences the development of cancer and other diseases.
Roy,this is a quote from the IOM website which also said the low levels in food has decreased since 1970.
Roy,you never answered my question.
Don't you think the va should help ANY sick or dieing vet?
I think it is the least the united states can do for the people who answered their call in its time of need.
I will continue with your reading list,
tom
Roy
August 7, 2008, 11:23pm (report abuse)The VA WILL help any vet who is sick. All he or she has to do is go to the VA medical center nearest them and they will receive treatment for any problem, service connected or not.
Roy
August 8, 2008, 12:37pm (report abuse)Interesting information concerning the dioxins produced by burning leaded gasoline.
http://www.epa.gov/OGWDW/dwh/t-soc/dioxin.html
There is also a very telling comment about the low solubility of dioxin in water. It seems that the primary way dioxins are carried in water is in sediment. It would seem to me that sediment would be filtered out of seawater prior to any process to distill it for drinking.
As to dioxins in the food supply, how many months did the typical sailor spend in the waters around Vietnam? And how many years has this same sailor been eating and drinking the food and water in the U.S? Or is that counter to your claim that the sea water MUST have been the culprit and therefore must be ignored?
There are far too many other means by which a sailor was exposed to dioxins to ever convince me that herbicides sprayed on land in Vietnam caused their health problems.
Ed Kidwell
August 9, 2008, 4:05pm (report abuse)Playing with words. When I used the word "permeated" it was for lack of a better one. Saturated,from the runoff and rainfall may have been a better choice.
Someone, against the vets and FOR the VA, whom we were TOLD not to trust in the 70's, seems to be on the side of the ones who never SERVED there eg: Bush and Cheney who hate us because we remind them of what they are NOT.
In keeping with American tradition they are screwing we who served in Vietnam because it wasn't a clear cut WIN. Well neither is Iraq nor Afghanistan and they are SHOWERING them with accollades and benefits for fighting Bush's war for oil and ego.
I expect America will get it's payback one day for the shoddy treatment they give the veterans of the LONGEST war. Perhaps Bush's shoddy presidency is the beginning.
Ed Kidwell
August 9, 2008, 4:11pm (report abuse)If the powers that be want to say that we weren't In Vietnam because we didn't set foot on the ground then the sailors and airmen in WW2 weren't there because THEY sat off or flew over the French, and Italian coasts and didn't set foot there.
It is EXACTLY the same thing.
If they discriminate against US then they SHOULD discriminate against THEM as WELL.
What a CROCK this country has become and obviously always WAS!
TOM RYAN
August 9, 2008, 5:38pm (report abuse)yess!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!thank god i am not the only one who feels that way!!!!!!!!!!!someone else with balls!!!!!!!!!!how refreshing!!!!!!!!!!!
J A Boyd
August 9, 2008, 9:40pm (report abuse)I have been reading through some of this trying to see what the big to-do is about and I gotta say that it looks like the Blue Water boys are living in a fantasy world. I just can't see how the small amount of dioxin that actually was in the spray would be able to "saturate" the amount of sea water you all are talking about.
And as far as the WWII vets are concerned, I sure don't see any of them claiming a disability based on this kind of fantasy. You all should get a grip and get on with life.
TOM
August 9, 2008, 10:37pm (report abuse)11,712,860LBS OF HIGHLY TOXIC DIOXIN ,THE MOST LETHAL CHEMICAL KNOWN TO MAN WAS AIRBORNE,MISTED AND EVAPORATED INTO DRINKING WATER BY DESTROYERS LESS THAN 1,000YRDS OFFSHORE PROVIDING UP CLOSE FIRE SUPPORT FOR THE US ARMY AND MARINES.SHIPS THAT WENT UPRIVER AND WERE EXPOSED TO AO ALL ALONG THE WAY.THIS WAS NOT A FANTASY.WW2 VETS
WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, HAVENT A CLUE.IT WAS A MUCH DIFFRENT WAR SIR.THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE.
Roy
August 9, 2008, 11:22pm (report abuse)Now Tom,
If you bothered to read the material I gave you, you would have seen that the IOM has documented that 368 lbs of dioxin was sprayed in ten years, not 11,712,860 lbs, as you seem to want us to believe. You are confusing, or perhaps deliberately misrepresenting, the facts.
Mr Boyd has pointed out the folly of the whole idea but you still cling to your delusions.
By the way do you believe shouting something (using all caps in your message) will convince anyone that what you say is true? Hardly.
Roy
August 10, 2008, 12:21am (report abuse)"11,712,860LBS OF HIGHLY TOXIC DIOXIN ,THE MOST LETHAL CHEMICAL KNOWN TO MAN ......"
TCDD, also known as dioxin, is terratogenic and, while toxic, is not necessarilly lethal.
Ed Kidwell
August 10, 2008, 3:51am (report abuse)Mr. Roy and Mr.Boyd
What department of the Bush Administration are you guys owned by?
The WW2 vets didn't have to do ANYTHING. They had it all GIVEN to them when they came back from overseas(the same thing they are doing for the Iraq vets) but they were so steeped in patriotism that they were afraid to claim any disabilities.THEIR government wasn't trying to kill them off.
It isn't OUR fault that the Class of '46 was trying to thin us out with poisons as WELL as enemies foreign AND domestic because we refused to become their little CLONES.
I wish they had gotten the SEVERE Diabetes II that I got .
Go Damn ANY country that treays theri vets like we have been treated. Payback for you is going to be a MONUMENTAL BITCH. One CAN hope.
If they turn us down again the courts will be DROWNING in Class actuion law suits.
J A Boyd
August 10, 2008, 8:53am (report abuse)Kidwell,
I am not "owned" by anyone. I am a thinking, educated person who recognizes an unsubstantiated, poorly built argument when he sees it. That is indeed what you blue water folks have.
Your response is typical of those who realize they have pinned their hopes on the wrong horse and are now stuck with it. You really should tone down the rhetoric because it makes you sound like a petty and spiteful litle man.
Approximately 21 million people in the United States have diabetes, or 7 percent of the population. Of those, over 6 million are unaware that they have the disease. Some of the risk factors for someone developing Type 2 diabetes include: Increasing age, obesity, and physical inactivity.
I wonder which of the above could be applied to you? For sure you are getting older, but the others are known only to you.
I seriously doubt that class-action lawsuits would be entertained by the courts simply because your case is insufficient on it's face.
tom
August 10, 2008, 9:29am (report abuse)I TYPE LARGE NOT TO YELL ,BUT TO SEE.
TURN YOUR BACKS ON US LIKE YOU DO TO THE HOMELESS AND PRETEND WE ARE NOT THERE AND WE MIGHT GO AWAY.....
WE WILL,WE ARE DIEING,,,,
Roy,
August 10, 2008, 10:45am (report abuse)Tom,
No one has turned their back on you. All anyone asks is for you to be realistic. The science does not support you but you can not, or will not, even listen.
Your dramatic use of references to the homeless only shows how you grasp for anything to support your cause, no matter how pathetic.
Ed Kidwell
August 10, 2008, 7:47pm (report abuse)Mr. Boyd ,You are an UNinformed Bush lover who sees any kind of fair treatment for we vets as an attack on your owner's profit margin.
I refuse to waste any more time trying to reason with ANY unreasonable Republican who can't see past Bush's wallet.
We will wait and see what happens If
it goes south for we vets again the courts will get it until we win or we are all as dead as AMERICA is going to be
under the rule of the profiteers.
Just as no democracy has ever been permanent in history;no capitalist rule has become anything but the fire to ignite systems that are hostile to profit takers AND hostile to freedom.
Good luck in the anarchy that you Bush lovers are starting the engine to.
Whomever has you attacking people who fought for freedom and NOT profits has MY curse on their futures just as they cursed MINE. It can't go any other way but bad for you fools who are guided by the subjugation of the rich.
Ed Kidwell
August 10, 2008, 7:50pm (report abuse)One FINAL comment. When 400,000 people with a LEGITIMATE grievance file a class action law suit ,it is NOT ignored. If it was then this country DESERVES to go to a richly deserved HELL.
It WILL if you profiteers get what YOU deserve.
WHEN it does...................
UP THE REVOLUTION!!!!!!!!!!!
Wally
August 10, 2008, 8:07pm (report abuse)Ray and Mr. Boyd sound like they are from they chemical companies. I's like to see what they have to say about mortality studies.
Roy
August 10, 2008, 8:11pm (report abuse)Mr Kidwell,
From my viewpoint your communist drivel is repugnant. You claim to have been a patriot but all I see is a poor, deluded soul.
Roy
August 10, 2008, 8:12pm (report abuse)Wally,
Point me at your information. I will be glad to respond after I have read it.
J A Boyd
August 10, 2008, 8:18pm (report abuse)Wally,
You said "I's like to see what they have to say about mortality studies."
If you can give me something reliable to go on I will be very happy to respond..
Ed
August 10, 2008, 9:31pm (report abuse)YOUR VIEW is repugnant. Maybe one day the military will refuse to go and fight for other peoples profits . Then people like you who have no courage for fighting will wish you had supported veteran's programs instead of trying to destroy them. If the WW2 vets thought they were going to get screwed by their country as WE from VietNam have been Canada would have become overpopulated and the jails would be CHOKED with war evaders. YOU ,of course would now be making your profits in Marks or Yen instead of dollars.
J A Boyd
August 10, 2008, 9:48pm (report abuse)Kidwell,
I suppose it's too late for you to go to one of the countries where your particular brand of vitriol is appreciated? Perhaps Venezuela is looking for another foaming-at-the-mouth lap dog for Chavez.
Ed
August 10, 2008, 9:56pm (report abuse)Bush obviously has a lap dog in YOU. What is the matter...........truth doesn't WASH? ANOTHER item that you people don't have in your repertoire.
I will be watching to see when YOUR world collapses. It IS right around the corner. Your owner........Bush...... has SEEN to it.NOW I have said all I plan to.I would wish you good luck but I DON'T!
Roy
August 11, 2008, 12:05am (report abuse)Mr Kidwell,
Tomorrow would be a good time for you to see a psychiatrist, and the earlier the better. You have obviously gone around the bend.
tom
August 11, 2008, 2:25am (report abuse)tisk,tisk,tisk or is it tick tick,tick,as the st Story progresses'.
THIS WILL BE SHOWN AS AN ERA Of national SHAME AS WAS THE MASSACRE OF WW1 VETS IN D.C.RIGHT AFTER WW1.GOD HELP AMERICA.
ANY COMMENT ROY OR MR.Boyd?
Wally
August 11, 2008, 7:27am (report abuse)Roy, have you looked at the error IOM made in quantifying what amount of dioxin was sprayed? There are several updated reports out there. One concerns the levels of contamination, another discusses sources outside the United States.
Wally
August 11, 2008, 7:31am (report abuse)A review of a popular Vietnam Veteran Service organization shows that 75% of their membership die before reaching Social Security retirement age.
Roy
August 11, 2008, 8:34am (report abuse)Wally,
I have seen one report that said one particular researcher believed there was more dioxin than previously reported. This did not come from the IOM and has not been substantiated by peer review.
Your comment about the death rate for a popular Vietnam veteran service organization is really vague. Can you give me a reference I can read or is this as far as it goes?
Wally
August 11, 2008, 9:04am (report abuse)Roy, you are either IOM or DVA in my opinion. I suggest you look beyond your work place. If you are a dedicated researcher, you will know where to find this data.
Roy
August 11, 2008, 10:07am (report abuse)Wally,
If you will look above I have already said that I am a retired military veteran as well as a retired teacher. It seems that anyone who disagrees with the propaganda put out by the vested interests is always branded as VA or government.
As to the research, it is easy for anyone to "publish" a report these days. The hard part is backing up the results and providing hard evidence.
And I am still waiting for you to provide something for me to look at to back up your assertions. Or is it just more rhetoric with no basis in verifiable fact?
Wally
August 11, 2008, 12:09pm (report abuse)I don't provide records although I have access to many. I will give you a hint though, look further into military records.
When it comes to "peer" review, I am going to assume that you are referring to selective "peer" review?
Roy
August 11, 2008, 1:00pm (report abuse)Well, if you choose not to provide me anything to look at then I can't possibly see how you come to your position..
As to peer review, I'm not sure what you mean by selective review. You really should be careful of assumptions.
If you actually read what IOM has published you will find a great deal of material is considered, from both sides of the question under review.
Perhaps, if so many people didn't have a vested monetary interest, they would be more open minded.
Wally
August 11, 2008, 3:00pm (report abuse)Roy, you clearly stated you have obtained your data from IOM. Since IOM has published that data, more data has come to light. Therefore the IOM data is not the "Gold Standard" you are touting it to be.
I am really sick of hearing the term peer review. If data were actually reviewed without predetermined outcome, maybe I would have more faith in a peer review system.
If IOM and DAV were put under independent audit to correct some of the administrative influence and quality issues that plauge their systems.
It may surprise you that I have read almost everything IOM has published on Agent Orange.
I have also read almost everything Young and Stellman have published.
I also read military documents that have come to light through various advocates and researchers.
As far as money goes, it means little to me now. I am very concerned that I may have only a few years left to live and I should have had at least ten more.
J A Boyd
August 11, 2008, 4:49pm (report abuse)Wally,
After looking back through this I see where Roy has also given other sources. So far you haven't provided any.
I would be surprised if you or anyone else had read EVERYTHING the IOM has published on Agent Orange.
You said "I am very concerned that I may have only a few years left to live and I should have had at least ten more." If that is the case then get on with your life. Don't cheat yourself or your family of any time you may have left.
Wally
August 11, 2008, 7:20pm (report abuse)J.A. Boyd,
I believe I mentioned IOM, Young, Stellman and military documents.
I have read quite a bit of data and do so every day.
With all do respect you sound just like the DVA. Were you in the military, did you serve in Vietnam and have you been exposed to Agent Orange? Just exactly what is your interest in denying veteran benefits?
When CDC did the Selected Cancers Study, did you not find the results for NHL of some interest?
Are you so sure in your convictions that you would have the Feres Doctrine removed for DVA.
Are you so sure that IOM documentation is complete and has never been tainted?
J A Boyd
August 11, 2008, 10:07pm (report abuse)25 years Air Force enlisted, over 3 of those years in Vietnam, working every landing zone big enough to allow a C-123 to land, at one time or another. So, yes, I suppose I was exposed, probably more so than many.
I have no interest in denying any veteran his or her legitimate benefit. Note the word legitimate.
The Feres Doctrine - "The United States is not liable under the Federal Tort Claims Act for injuries to members of the armed forces sustained while on active duty and not on furlough and resulting from the negligence of others in the armed forces." If you wish to see things become even worse for veterans than they are now, while enriching every lawyer in the country 10,000 fold, then I suppose removing the VA from the coverage is what you want. I do not think any government agency should be held hostage to half-baked idiocy generated by those who want to dine at the public trough.
I really doubt that any documentation is ever complete, even those you would prefer.
setile
August 12, 2008, 1:00am (report abuse)roy,in 1978 i was between jobs,i was 33 had a stroke.i rember when i raised my right hand and was led to believe if i ever needed medical help i could aways count on the va.well i hobled my rear to the va,waited in line for them to turn me away.after 30 about 25 years i went back,updated my 214 put in my claims got what was coming to me.so never say the va will help anyone.you only have to watch the news to see that.every doctor i have seen in the va is over worked and under paid.
Roy
August 12, 2008, 1:24am (report abuse)setile,
So what was the reason you "updated my 214"?
If you were discharged under other than dishonorable conditions you are authorized healthcare. You may not be in the top priority group but you can still get care.
Remember that the "news" today is not about informing, it is about selling whatever product they are hawking during the next commercial.
Gus
August 12, 2008, 5:57am (report abuse)"The Agent Orange Equity Act of 2008 is intended to clarify the law so that every service member awarded the Vietnam Service medal, or who otherwise deployed to land, sea or air, in the Republic of Vietnam is fully covered by the comprehensive Agent Orange laws Congress passed in 1991."
VSM qualification dates are between 2 Jul 65 and 28 Mar 73.
April 1970 - all Agent Orange spray missions were ceased.
May 1970 - all defoliation missions were ceased.
Under the new 2008 Equity Act criteria, ship crews fifty miles offshore and overflying (above the tropopause in pressure suits breathing 100% oxygen) SR-71 / U-2 pilots, etc. will be eligible to make an AO claims of exposure almost three years after spray operations were terminated.